Help Plan a Roebuck Class Fifth Rate

[Syal Antilli]

After a lifelong interest in fighting ships and Lego, I would like to attempt a minifig scale version of a Royal Navy Roebuck class fifth-rate. Perhaps the HMS Diomede, or even the HMS Serapis. Being the first true ship MOC i've done in over ten years, I would appreciate some input on how to proceed. It seems that most minifig scale mocs are somewhere in the 1.35 to 1.44 range, and I'm curious as to how experienced Historical Ship MOCs have leaned on that curve, and how it translates to stud measurements. Being an attempt on minifig scale, it'll be a brick-built hull; but i doubt ill try to have a full minifig complement crew as i would like to go the custom minifig route. With a 1.4 conversion, that would make a 100 by 27 stud design from gundeck and beam measurements.

Roebuck class dimensions are:

Type:Fifth-rate ship

Tons burthen:879 26⁄94 (bm), (as designed)

Length:

140 ft (43 m) (gundeck)

116 ft 4.375 in (35 m) (keel)

Beam:37 ft 9.5 in (12 m)

Depth of hold:16 ft 4 in (5 m)

Sail plan:Full-rigged ship

Complement:280 (300 from 1783)

Armament:

Lower deck: 20 x 18-pounder guns

Upper deck: 22 × 9-pounder guns

(later upgraded to 12-pounder guns)

Quarterdeck: nil

Forecastle: 2 × 6-pounder guns

 

Any feedback is greatly appreciated, as well as tips and other thoughts.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Syal Antilli

[kurigan]

My first/best advice is to start smaller, much smaller. 

 

I don't scale by the numbers so much, I take a more "artistic" approach. My theory is to take the smallest elements I plan to model, and figure out how I'm going to recreate that in lego. For the most part your smallest dimension can only be 1 X 1 studs, with a few exceptions like plate thickness, technic axles and bars. Here you wind up thinking of things like pin rails, gun barrels, masts and spars. Reckless wound up being about 51 studs for a ratio of 1:15 (if we did the math right, assuming a 20 foot water line) and she is still very cramped on deck. Your estimate of 100 X 27 studs may be about right, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it jump up either. 

 

It's very difficult to anticipate every hang-up you're going to encounter along the way. It will be a lot harder to make adjustments, let alone tear down and start again, when you get half way through such a massive project and figure out something isn't right. 

 

I do not think of myself as "the premier builder" but I can only offer advice from my own perspective. I have been at this for a decade, learning, re-learning, refining and developing and still the largest ship in my fleet in an armed cutter. The advice I'm giving is not all my own either. It's the same you'd get in a wooden model forum. Start small, learn the subject AND the medium, then move on to bigger things. 

 

As for crews, I found no need for any more than the watch on deck. Minifigs take up more space that real world humans on account of their infantile proportions. I found it hard to find space for everyone on Reckless's deck as it is. If I made any more custom crew they'd just be left on the beach. 

 

What are your intentions for rigging? No matter which way you go, you're going to have to take all that into consideration when designing you hull, lest you wind up having to go back, tear things up and work it out again. 

[Syal Antilli]

I was thinking of doing a traditional ship rig, making my own sails and all. From what I've seen from other builds here, that definitely seems to be the way to go as far as accurate representation and display. Doing everything I can in LDD, and have several "Green Hair" style frigates moc'd up as simple freestyle builds. The challenge of making something this large as a first moc build is not lost on me, but I'm finding I'm not happy with anything smaller. My wife said I can only do "one", so I want it be impressive.

[Anders T]

I do understand your wife, but Kurigan is right: Start small.

To give you a specific idea on the size of what you are planning.

Look at this Minifig- scale LDD version of a ship close to the size of HMS Roebuck.

http://www.moc-pages.com/moc.php/298034

I designed it quite some time ago and would never attempt to build it as it is.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Anders T

[kurigan]

 

OK, it's time for "Fun Facts with Kurigan": The term to be "sent up river" came to refer to a prison sentence, vocational termination or some other unfortunate fate in the 20th century, but prior to that it referred to the practice of purposely wrecking aging ships in-land, so their licensing could be clandestinely transferred to newer vessels. Left on the river banks they would either be so far out of the way as to be forgotten or broken up by locals for firewood and building materials. The banks of the Maurice and other small rivers here in Southern New Jersey are said to be littered with the decaying remains of fishing schooners which met just such a fate; left to sink and rot in a muddy oblivion. There was still only one ship by a given name under license yet it looked and sailed like new. *wink-wink* 

 

You could always, build up and tear back down, use the same license so to speak.  

 

Whether you choose to press on or not, my advice on scaling is still the same. Figure out the smallest element (s) you plan to recreate. Run your experiments, click some bricks and when your satisfied, base your scale on that piece. 

 

What element should that be? I don't know. That's entirely up to the artist/builder. What's your level of detail going to be like? How are you going to approach certain elements which may affect the look of others? These are the things you figure out on a sloop. 

 

One of the greatest challenges of Lego shipbuilding is that you can't just follow the plans and there are no instructions. Again, compared to wood where you cut and shape your material till it's just right, you can't whittle down a Lego. 

 

It's more important to figure out technique before scale, but you need to figure out function before technique. Will it be interactive or a static display? Complete or functional rig? Full hull or water line? Make those decisions and start shopping around builds that have impressed upon you for a starting point. You probably won't adopt any one builder's technique outright, but you will make your life a lot easier of you don't try to reinvent the wheel, or brick, as it were. 

 

A final note on a personal level; if your building it for the "glory", don't. You won't find any. Put your time and money elsewhere. This truly is a labor of love or it's a waste of time.  

[Maxim I]

My advice: go for it!

Take the Roebuck as inspiration (guidance), but be sure to check many lego models and copy their techniques.

It has a shape that can be complished with Lego bricks (CGH ship building technique).

Using his guide and some examples of two deckers:

(creator's note: this one has been updated, but haven't found the time to finish the sails...)

As Kurigan said, you will have to build, destroy, build, destroy, build, rebuild, build, .... till you find something satisfactory for you.

 

[Syal Antilli]

Gentlemen, this is exactly what I wanted to hear. Kurigan, I greatly respect you and your builds, but I just don't feel I personally can do justice to such an intricate marvel of naval engineering on that scale. I do not seek glory, only the deep sense of personal satisfaction that comes from years of planing and execution. As far as model type, I envision a full keel modular model that can split to a both a waterline model for interactive "play" and stand-alone display.  I plan on a full-function complete ship rig, with raising and lowering sails. Although I plan on fully modeling all decks, I might just go for modular side cutaways on certain sections to reveal areas of interest. I'f that proves difficult to execute, a full removable side leaving the structural ribbing. Anders, thank you for the LDD file, it gives me a much better idea as to how I could go about planing such a build.

[kurigan]

On 3/14/2017 at 11:45 AM, Syal Antilli said:

I just don't feel I personally can do justice to such an intricate marvel of naval engineering on that scale.

To clear I'm not arguing the point, I'm just confused and want to make sure we are all on the same page. It wouldn't be the first time users argued over agreeing around these parts.  

When we say "scale" we specifically mean: how many times smaller a thing is than the original. Size and scope of a build are two separate things, distinct from one another as well. For instance, although Shiplover's Poseidon is on about the same scale as my Reckless, she is certainly larger in size, and greater in scope, what with her rather complete interior. Put my little cutter along side and it would appear almost small enough for that SotL to hoist her on deck like a launch, but that's realistic. So, my concern earlier was you having enough space, time and bricks to invest into such a large build. Most don't have Shiplover's patience to stick with a build for 5 years. Bowsprit to boom tip, Reckless is about 85 studs long. Doesn't seem like that much until you have to find a safe place to store her.

On 3/14/2017 at 11:45 AM, Syal Antilli said:

I envision a full keel modular model that can split to a both a waterline model for interactive "play" and stand-alone display.  I plan on a full-function complete ship rig, with raising and lowering sails. Although I plan on fully modeling all decks, I might just go for modular side cutaways on certain sections to reveal areas of interest. I'f that proves difficult to execute, a full removable side leaving the structural ribbing. Anders, thank you for the LDD file, it gives me a much better idea as to how I could go about planing such a build.

That's not impossible. It's been done to some extent before. I don't know if it was intentional or a happy side effect but Henrik pulled it off on his fishing boats and was likely possible on Cutty Sark as well. It's not common to do both though and I have to wonder how it would affect having an interior. DPW and Shiplover have found success in doing modular sections to that effect. Check out Persephone! 

[kurigan]

Tough it's really not good form to ask, I am immensely curious how this projects goes?

[Syal Antilli]

Reworking the LDD model to be more friendly to historical accuracy, and decided to stick with the waterline type build. I didn't have the tumblehome right, and the hull curvature was not correct trying to do a full keel build.  Trying to find a full blueprint so i can correct some of the issues.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Syal Antilli
additional info

[shiplover]

Go for it.  I calculated the dimensions of Poseidon exactly the same as you are doing in your first post. I used the same methods for the location and height of the masts, the yards, and almost all of the major features. Then, adjust as needed to make it work. Build, tear it apart, build, tear it apart, build, tear it apart, and build again. With some patience, persistence, and a lot of time perusing ideas on this and other websites, you will get there. For me it's been five years. Five years later . . . its worth it! 

[Syal Antilli]

Thanks, currently in the eight redesign of the hull. I did find some blueprints that I'm pretty sure are in Spanish, but I'm not exactly fluent. It's a lot easier at this stage to use those those than just trying to eyeball measure model ship builds off the internet. Unfortunately actual construction will have to wait a while, as my wife had a change in employment that halved our income. But at least it will give me time to prefect the LDD design.

[Roebuck]

On 12.3.2017 at 8:32 PM, Syal Antilli said:

Royal Navy Roebuck

Sorry off topick, but that must be the best ship name I have ever heard

[Anders T]

There is a lot of measuring and calculation in the initial stages of such a build.

Feel free to share and ask.

 

[Syal Antilli]

Alright gentlemen, I have need of input. Going from a scale of 1-38-4, making the HMS Serapis about 140 studs in length at the gundeck and roughly 38 studs wide, I'm curious as to how large typical gun ports would be. I can't seem to find any measures of the Serapis' actual gunport size, and deciding how I'm going to model the actual hull form kind of depends on it. Due to LDD limits on brick and hinge workings I'm also trying to decide if I'm going to make the side of the hull flip open to view the interior (which I would prefer), or just end up doing a solid brick hull form. I've spent nearly two months now in LDD designing and redoing this several times, and right now i'm at a mental block. currently sitting around 1300 bricks and all I have is the base and some of the bow roughed out.

 

Also, Who wants to design a figurehead? it's too big to use a minifig, and should be 2-3 studs wide and 6-7 tall. And needs to look like this... http://www.stephensandkenau.com/ship/hms-serapis/

Edited May 21, 2017 by Syal Antilli
Addi

[Anders T]

On 21/5/2017 at 5:45 PM, Syal Antilli said:

Alright gentlemen, I have need of input. Going from a scale of 1-38-4, making the HMS Serapis about 140 studs in length at the gundeck and roughly 38 studs wide, I'm curious as to how large typical gun ports would be. I can't seem to find any measures of the Serapis' actual gunport size, and deciding how I'm going to model the actual hull form kind of depends on it.

I find that on early or ships such as a carrack or a galleon 2x2 stud gunports work fine.

On later models like brigs, frigates and ships of the line 3x3 stud gunports seem more appropriate to me.

In any case you should measure on the drawings.

 

 

On 21/5/2017 at 5:45 PM, Syal Antilli said:

Due to LDD limits on brick and hinge workings I'm also trying to decide if I'm going to make the side of the hull flip open to view the interior (which I would prefer), or just end up doing a solid brick hull form. I've spent nearly two months now in LDD designing and redoing this several times, and right now i'm at a mental block. currently sitting around 1300 bricks and all I have is the base and some of the bow roughed out.

 

 

Work on one problem at a time.

Either make a decision on your design of a possible opening of the hull and then go to the shaping.

Or do it the other way around.

-Do measure in LDD. If this is done right it makes the next stages of designing are so much easier. No matter what technique you are going for.

On shaping: Here you should decide up front if you are going for something that relies on bending and twisting. - Can work very well:

Or drawing with the bricks.

 

 

On 21/5/2017 at 5:45 PM, Syal Antilli said:

Also, Who wants to design a figurehead? it's too big to use a minifig, and should be 2-3 studs wide and 6-7 tall. And needs to look like this... http://www.stephensandkenau.com/ship/hms-serapis/

 

Usually none of the standard LEGO® bricks (like guns, hullparts, masts, minifigs) work well on a scale model.

This is where the challenge is.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Anders T

[kurigan]

This is exactly what I mean when I say technique before scale. 3 X 3 is more realistic on a large scale as Anders T points out. It can get pretty bulky and just damned inconvenient though. 2 X 2 is certainly a lot easier but may cause you to further reduce your scale. Bregir has been working on "fractional gun ports" and has met with some success, but I don’t know if he's tackled flaps yet. 

 

Here I go beating a dead horse, but again, these are things to figure out on a small scale. "Build, destroy, build." LDD is only so useful for plotting out real world builds at least where ships are concerned. Take it from a former LDD advocate, there's no substitute for just clicking some bricks. The biggest problem I ran into was a lack of gravity in the digital environment, but there's a lot more that often gets lost in translation. Note: Anders T there, is the exception and yet he has only gone so far as to bring a humble gun brig to life in plastic, thus far. 

 

http://s199.photobucket.com/user/kurigan_the_red/library/Tall%20Ships?sort=6&page=1 

 

I did suggest modular sections before, but I suppose it just didn't land so might I suggest taking a queue from wooden modelers and leave one side exposed? You could also design her with a completely removable side or just split her in half. I can't see how hinges would do anything but hinder your efforts towards period accurate shapelyness.  

 

As to a figurehead you might try one of the old Technic figures. They can actually sit like your example and are quite a bit taller than mini-figs; perhaps too much taller, but hey, it's an idea. 

[Syal Antilli]

While playing around with Technic in order to overcome the unequal stud measurements from the bow to the main hull, inspiration hit me. What if in order to maintain a true hull curvature, I simply used Technic pins and arms as opposed to hinges so that I could fold an entire hull side down? I did play around with modular sections a bit, but due the potential size of the final product I think I'm going to forgo much of the play aspect and build for display. of course, this may change. Once I have more of the model roughed out I'll get some pictures up, or maybe a download. It needs to be considerably cleaned up before that though.

[kurigan]

I like that you're thinking/innovating, but can't picture your proposed mechanism in my head. You say lift arms and pins and I think "Revenge". 

[Syal Antilli]

There's a good reason why you can't picture it, it didn't work to line up with the bow  properly while maintaining proportions, so I would either have to redo that and the whole outline(Nuclear Option), or decide on another method of connection. So now I'm using a simple slide connection, which I'll anchor with pins.

On the plus side, at least it lines up properly so I don't have 1/3 brick gaps between the bow and side hull.