[TC11] Technic Contest Battle Bots - Discussion Topic

[PKW]

1 hour ago, Seasider said:

On top of that there have then been discussions over the "Power" of various robots ... What about if you don't have a buggy motor but still wanted a spinner ?

I use old 9V for my spinners, but 1:6 M motors are fine too (like ochayedonald's bots), RC motors use too much power for the rpm they gives, they are just "mechanically" cheapier but not as good as old 9V with low friction support (managed to have 2000+ rpm without worrying about power consumption of weapons  while spinning up) so I think power of a robot is more or less power of its design, for example thumper and powerspin have different motors and sizes but their power is almost the same (high mass vertical and horizontal spinner) lsame thing: despite being different harvester of sorrow and pancake have a really similar power to nibbler (low mass spinner) 

But what i've seen reading voting comments is that lots of people voted for their own criteria and this is good because the winner should appear good for really different voters, not only be good at one thing (like the power of a RC motor)

[Erik Leppen]

I would hate to see people vote for a bot because it uses a hefty motor. This is a Lego Technic building competition, so I judge on Lego Technic building ability within a theme; meaning the votes to go those who managed to get the most out of their Lego. . A smaller bot is harder to build, so this is more impressive (So I estimated size and let it count negatively in my score). A bot with a spinner is the easiest to build, so I deducted points for spinners unless they had additional weapons/movements. Using battery boxes as weights seems to me as cheating, so I counted that negatively in my score. Also, to not let photo quality decide the winner, I decided to judge the photo quality and let it count negatively, in order to try to combat the automatic unconscious preference for nice pictures.

I don't care for RPMs, because as always, we see a Lego model as "representing" for something in the real world, instead of actually "being" it.

[agrof]

2 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

Also, to not let photo quality decide the winner, I decided to judge the photo quality and let it count negatively, in order to try to combat the automatic unconscious preference for nice pictures.

Counting higher quality pictures as negative?  It is strange, I would say if you don't want to consider it in your decision, than leaving it completely away is more fair, rather than "compensate" others assumed votes.

Overall: a good presentation does add to the MOC (also for everything), and if somebody makes effort to make it more enjoyable, than it is a thing to appretiate, and also helps to transmit the message and the value of the object of the presentation. I am not speaking about camera resolution, not speaking about proper hardware and pheriperials (lightroom, camera, computer), these are just matter of money. No vertical video, clean enviroment, some video editing, adjusted camera perspective for photos already show clearly, that somebody put energy into the project, independently of what tool was used. For me it is part of the fun and maybe seen in my description: part of a conscious decision.

I don't want to argue about who and how judge, nor to convince anybody, but this part hit my eyes (in logic), sorry.

2 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

I don't care for RPMs, because as always, we see a Lego model as "representing" for something in the real world, instead of actually "being" it.

Actually, here we are in the situation, that the bots are really able to "being" it. Lego bot vs Lego bot, they don't need to represent anything, as they actually can/could flip, push, hammer, throw, etc each other.

Edited April 25, 2017 by agrof
grammar

[shadow_elenter]

2 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

A smaller bot is harder to build, so this is more impressive (So I estimated size and let it count negatively in my score) 

I agree that unused space in a bot is a bad thing, but a big bot can be just as hard (at some points even harder) to build, It depends on what you put in the bot. 

I build a large bot, but it has absolutely no unused space, in fact I spent more than 4 hours rearranging parts just so I could fit in everything and close it up.
I would argue the amount of unused space in a bot should count negatively, not the size in general.

In my case that was a strategical choice to counter the big spinners, and I don't think that should be counted negatively, do you?

 

[PKW]

Just now, shadow_elenter said:

I agree that unused space in a bot is a bad thing, but a big bot can be just as hard (at some points even harder) to build, It depends on what you put in the bot. 

I build a large bot, but it has absolutely no unused space, in fact I spent more than 4 hours rearranging parts just so I could fit in everything and close it up.
I would argue the amount of unused space in a bot should count negatively, not the size in general.

In my case that was a strategical choice to counter the big spinners, and I don't think that should be counted negatively, do you?

 

building a big AND compact bot is cerainly hard, and you made a really good work doing that, your bot is big but not hollow, but "compact" is also quite subjective, for example someone can argue that the 8043 is really compact due to having 6 functions with 4 motors, but it has some empty space in it, so what someone can think of your build is "that is a great punch function, but it is good because it is well build or because it needs 2 L motors and 2 servo motors? (correct me i don't remember the numbers) maybe mammoth system is better/more compact using only 2 motors?" and other things like that.

about size i judge as asked, there is the likeliness to win a battle criteria, and this is a combat robot contest, so i just need to think about all other bot of same size when i need to give points for "likeliness to win a battle" and big bots will be treated as small bot: same class of opponents so the best one will win. and this is like in real life.

looks and signature aren't so influenced by size because yes, having a lot of space can lead to a more detailed armor, but it is harder so better look=better quality, while the signature move should be judged out of combat: is that spinner powerful? it doesn't break itself? it is good, no matter it can't break other legos

[Erik Leppen]

2 hours ago, agrof said:

Counting higher quality pictures as negative?  It is strange, I would say if you don't want to consider it in your decision, than leaving it completely away is more fair, rather than "compensate" others assumed votes.

No, no, compensate for my own assumed votes. Also, this is a building contest, not a photography contest. I know good pictures are nice, but I don't want a good picture to help win a building contest. But don't worry, if the end result of my vote didn't "feel" right, I simply adjusted it. In the end I just chose the bots I liked most. But because this was pretty hard, I used a scoring table for help.

18 minutes ago, shadow_elenter said:

I agree that unused space in a bot is a bad thing, but a big bot can be just as hard (at some points even harder) to build, It depends on what you put in the bot. 

I build a large bot, but it has absolutely no unused space, in fact I spent more than 4 hours rearranging parts just so I could fit in everything and close it up.
I would argue the amount of unused space in a bot should count negatively, not the size in general.

Indeed, it depends a lot on what it does. But the big bots in this compo, in general, don't have more functons than the smaller ones. Most I see have one or two; small and big ones alike. They just used more motors, more BB's, larger wheels, etc. And to be honest, I don't care if a weapon uses 1 motor or 5. It's still one function. In fact I think 1 is more "pure", so I prefer that. As a wise man said not long ago in another topic: build as large as needed, not as large as possible. I want to encourage that mindset by voting more on bots that follow that principle.

18 minutes ago, shadow_elenter said:

In my case that was a strategical choice to counter the big spinners

I view the bots as representing real bots, and in real bots, the big heavy ones go against the big heavy ones. So, bigger bot -> bigger opponent. The best way to counter the big spinners is have a small bot, because a small bot isn't put against big spinners (at least not in the battles in my imagination. Remember, it's about likeliness to win a battle and because there're no real battles, we'd have to imagine them; and I imagine the big bots to go against each other, just like in real Battlebots).

Size is relative. :)

Of course, we all vote differently, but I wouldn't want to see a bot win because it's large or heavy. I want to see an entry win a Lego building contest because it's a good, interesting Lego build.

[agrof]

That part was missing Erik. I am not worried, everyone votes as preferred, but as you admit, despite the well-thought voting strategy, you already had the unconscious preferences. Otherwise the scoring table wouldn't had to be corrected to feel it "right", which is a good thing, you still have emotions after all (same story here).

[shadow_elenter]

31 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

The best way to counter the big spinners is have a small bot, because a small bot isn't put against big spinners

That's not countering, that's avoiding the battle entirely.

 

 

 

[PKW]

12 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

1)I view the bots as representing real bots, and in real bots, the big heavy ones go against the big heavy ones.

 

2) So, bigger bot -> bigger opponent.

 

3)The best way to counter the big spinners is have a small bot, because a small bot isn't put against big spinners

 

4)at least not in the battles in my imagination.

1) right!

2) right!

3) WARING: false assumption! Big (aka destructive) spinner are robots that have a really heavy spinner but not in module, it is all about what % of total weight has got the spinner, let me explain:

Uk Heavyweight, a big spinner has a 20-30kg spinning mass

UK featherweight, a big spinner has a 4-5kg spinning mass

...

...

UK amtweights, a big spinner has a 10g spinning mass!

Opponents doesn't depend on weight (if you have to (4) imagine battles) so you should mentally test "how this bot will handle a spinner on the same class? How a flipper? And so on"  instead if you want to image fights between contestants (but there should be no real battle as you said so this is not the right way maybe) then it is right that big spinner are in the big class

[allanp]

 I think there is too much thinking going on here! In this contest there were no weight catagories stipulated but there is a single size catagory of 45 studs, which all bots weredesigned to fit into. Therefore any bot can fight any other bot. As for buggy motors, in real life battle bots there is no consideration given as to what components the builders had available to them. Its all about who wins in a fight, not what parts they couldn't use, how close they are to size or weight limit or any of that. If it goes to a judges decision then they look at aggresiveness and control. Since we cant judge that we can only judge who we think would win in a fight and really thats it. 

[Marxpek]

The voting is somewhat unclear on how it should be done, the discussion topic has some info on it but not a lot, the voting topic itself has no info on how to vote.

To me this is all fine, it leaves room for discussion and interpretation but it also gives voters the space to vote for whatever they like best for whatever reason.

I never took any weight/size class in consideration, i just imagined all bots being somewhat similar in size in the battle that played in my mind, building bigger is not better in my mind, building compact is.

I also judged it as if it was a real LEGO battle bot fight, not as if it was built with metal, i also considered thermal protectors on battery boxes and such, (a spinner with a direct connected buggy motor is easily countered by blocking the spinner and tripping the thermal resistor, only the rechargeable box would prevent this maybe, rendering the spinner useless) to me this was a Lego contest where we had to consider Lego problems like that (also the reason mine wasn't built with buggy motors).

Anyway I don't see anything wrong with how people are voting, there are no clear guidelines for it, so everyone should decide themselves what they find important for a Lego battle bot and that is what is happening at the moment.

People might not like it and not get the points they expected, but it is all subjective and based on what others like, a true judge-based contest.

Maybe it is a better idea for the future to raffle all prizes under the top 10 contestants (or the top half or something), to me it seems some people are trying to (unknowingly maybe) influence voting and i can understand people are excited to be able to win prizes, but greed can bring out the worst in people (not saying i saw people acting bad here, but i do see frustrations and such)

In the end this should be a contest for fun, not frustrations, i'm pretty sure i won't stand a chance of winning anything, but that is not what matters to me, what matters to me is sharing a common goal with similar minded people and then compare and share our projects and solutions.

And I thank you all for this! Have fun!

 

 

 

[agrof]

Maybe I am naive, but considering discussions, opinions, also sharing a tool (which is not a weapon, and not mandatory to use) as calculative or unknowing influence in order to win, is a bit hard statement, especially on this forum. If somebody enters a contest here for winning, than maybe this is not the right place for him/her. For me it is a treasure chest of creativity, engineering, and sometimes art. I still see the fun side of the contest, I see only MOCers, no competitors. Okay, I am naive... or just not a competitive type of person (which is actually correct). 

[aminnich]

I can speak for myself. I did not join the contest to win, but I definetely thought I had a chance.... 

[Marxpek]

@agrof  maybe i read into words too much and but i was not really referring to the spreadsheet, rather to some comments people made about how people are voting... I just saw  frustration from people that expected people to vote for different reasons. Perhaps my statement was too hard and yes i am totally new here on the forum so maybe i shouldn't have said that, since i have no reference, but it was a feeling i got while reading posts. But if i offended anyone: that was never my intention.

And yes, a treasure chest of creative engineering and 100% fun for sure, but besides MOC-ers i do see competitors as well (in the same people) which is good in my mind, competition drives some people to new heights, i think the entry topic is proof of that!

 

[Aventador2004]

1 hour ago, agrof said:

Maybe I am naive, but considering discussions, opinions, also sharing a tool (which is not a weapon, and not mandatory to use) as calculative or unknowing influence in order to win, is a bit hard statement, especially on this forum. If somebody enters a contest here for winning, than maybe this is not the right place for him/her. For me it is a treasure chest of creativity, engineering, and sometimes art. I still see the fun side of the contest, I see only MOCers, no competitors. Okay, I am naive... or just not a competitive type of person (which is actually correct). 

Just like you I entered to create and have fun along the way, ( I expected I would get at least a point, nope.)

1 hour ago, aminnich said:

I can speak for myself. I did not join the contest to win, but I definetely thought I had a chance.... 

Me too, I am disappointed .

13 minutes ago, Marxpek said:

@agrof  maybe i read into words too much and but i was not really referring to the spreadsheet, rather to some comments people made about how people are voting... I just saw  frustration from people that expected people to vote for different reasons. Perhaps my statement was too hard and yes i am totally new here on the forum so maybe i shouldn't have said that, since i have no reference, but it was a feeling i got while reading posts. But if i offended anyone: that was never my intention.

And yes, a treasure chest of creative engineering and 100% fun for sure, but besides MOC-ers i do see competitors as well (in the same people) which is good in my mind, competition drives some people to new heights, i think the entry topic is proof of that!

 

Agreed.

Just isn't what I expected from this contest.

[Lakop]

just had time to look at the entries. Some great bots.

H

[AndroTech]

I was too late in voting topic .... but anyway ...

30 : 10

  3 : 6

21 : 4

20 : 3

29 : 2

  9 : 1

Good luck to everyone !

[pangniadek]

Congratulations to all and thank you for having fun!

I admit that I do not understand some of the scores, but I see that not in this competition is not counted true combat value only pretends - I often do not understand in Lego competitions.
Some of the bots, if they came to a real fight within a short time, would be a pile of blocks or their slack would not be able to defend themselves against the opponent.
I admit that I was expecting and constructing in terms of speed, attack and lack of corrupt parts (sprockets, falling wheels and overturning robots) - just like in a real robot fight.
As a new member in this forum, I have come to the conclusion that these robots will never stand up against one another and are constructed in other categories.

Do not get me wrong, because some of the robots are really great but unfortunately some in the real fight (not the virtual ones) will drop out after the first shot of at least 10 bots taking part.

Regards, and again Congratulations !!

[Slewentogzz]

This was a great contest, and the first contest I participated in on Eurobricks, but certainly not the last. If someone wants an idea for a future contest: RC boat contest! I love boats... and building boats with lego is a real challange. I don't know what the winning criteria would be, maybe speed, but that will probably be hard to measure.

Just an idea, and thanks to all the moderators for taking their time to make contests!

[Boyce]

Ok, so I am new to Eurobrick, so I’m not sure if this is the place for this as the competition is over, but is it ok if i show you guys the bot I created, it wouldn’t have qualified for the size limits anyway its 50•52 and 9 high. ( The competition I went to (and won?) had a two channel and 3kg limit). PF only.

[Milan]

1 hour ago, Boyce said:

Ok, so I am new to Eurobrick

Hi and welcome to EB.
You are free to make a new topic and present your bot. We would like to see it!

Otherwise, we prefer not to bump old topics, unless you have something important to add to the conversation.

Have fun!

[Boyce]

10 hours ago, Milan said:

Hi and welcome to EB.
You are free to make a new topic and present your bot. We would like to see it!

Otherwise, we prefer not to bump old topics, unless you have something important to add to the conversation.

Have fun!

Ok, and Thx!