Lowa

Narrow gauge straights and cross track

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To all narrow gauge track enthusiasts:

We just finalized our straight narrow gauge track design and we're currently printing the first batch of tracks in black and dark bluish gray (the picture is a bit over-exposed...). 
 

xm7mfazjaf6w.jpg
We also designed a narrow gauge cross track so you can start building layouts that go beyond a simple loop.  But I'm wondering which types of wheel are you using for narrow gauge trains?  The reason I'm asking is the following.  Cross tracks need a little gap in their tracks, otherwise the trains can't pass.  This gives a little bump when the train goes over it.  In my standard gauge cross track we added a raised section (see below) like LEGO does in their switches to prevent this 'bump'.  The height of the raised section depends on the shape of the wheels.  We would like to do the same for the narrow gauge cross track but we also want to be sure we're not creating a problem for a certain type of wheel that is used for some narrow gauge trains.  I don't think there is a standard wheel like for the standard gauge trains, right ? Please let me know which wheels you use or any other thoughts / suggestions you might have.  Thank you!

91ojfr32nc0l.jpg

Edited by Lowa

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50254 would be the typical wheel for narrow gauge (that is what LEGO uses). 57999 would be used if extra traction would be needed I guess...

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Man this is amazing! I always wanted to see a narrow gauge tram going though Lego cities. this is perfect, love it.

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This looks interesting! I've always wondered how well 3-Foot gauge American locomotives would look on Narrow Gauge Lego track; and advancements like this could be useful. 

I haven't built a Narrow Gauge train yet in real life, but my experiments on LDD have used wheels as big as the Emerald Night drivers, and ones as small as those little tiny ones. Hard to say if there really is a "standard" to it yet.

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Cool.  It would be best to have them work with all LEGO train wheels and popular 3rd party wheels since it would give the most flexibility to the builders. Will you be making a STL file available like those LEGO tracks on Thingieverse or are you selling and promoting your products?

 

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7 hours ago, JopieK said:

50254 would be the typical wheel for narrow gauge (that is what LEGO uses). 57999 would be used if extra traction would be needed I guess...

Thank you for quick feedback.  I just measured them and both these wheel have a 3.2 mm flange.  That means they would both need the same raised section for a smooth transition over the gap.

3 hours ago, McWaffel said:

Man this is amazing! I always wanted to see a narrow gauge tram going though Lego cities. this is perfect, love it.

Thanks.  I'm glad you like them!

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22 minutes ago, xboxtravis7992 said:

This looks interesting! I've always wondered how well 3-Foot gauge American locomotives would look on Narrow Gauge Lego track; and advancements like this could be useful. 

I haven't built a Narrow Gauge train yet in real life, but my experiments on LDD have used wheels as big as the Emerald Night drivers, and ones as small as those little tiny ones. Hard to say if there really is a "standard" to it yet.

I haven't seen that many narrow gauge trains, so it's indeed hard to say whether there is a "standard' or not.  However, the two wheels JopieK referred to have the same flange depth.  It thus seems that LEGO did standardize its train (like) wheels.  The diameter of the rim face of the 50254 is half of that of the 57999; while the flange depth is the same.  That cannot be a coincidence, especially as the flange depth is the standard plate thickness.  I guess we can assume that was an intentional choice from LEGO and thus consider it as an 'official LEGO standard'...

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Pretty sure all of the train wheels have 3.2mm flanges, including Big Ben Bricks' third-party-wheels.

My narrow-gauge single Fairlie uses the medium-size wheels, and I expect other builders might use them as well (bigger than that and the wheels start looking a bit silly on the narrow track. It might be worth investing in two pairs of each Big Ben Bricks wheels for testing.

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Yeah I just checked and it seems even the US 3-Foot gauge stuff (the big end of Narrow Gauge) had smaller wheels which probably would be best represented via small BB wheels.

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This looks very promising. From nothing suddenly we have two separate projects developing 4-wide track. I'm very excited about this.

When and where might it be possible to buy track? Have you any plans for wider radius curves and points/track switches?

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6 hours ago, dr_spock said:

Cool.  It would be best to have them work with all LEGO train wheels and popular 3rd party wheels since it would give the most flexibility to the builders. Will you be making a STL file available like those LEGO tracks on Thingieverse or are you selling and promoting your products?

I agree, we'll verify to make sure it's as compatible as possible with the various wheels out there.

Yes, we'll be printing them and making them available for purchase !  We already have an extended range of monorail tracks and plan to do the same for trains. We had our filament supplier create a dark bluish gray filament so our 3D printed track will blend in with the LEGO track.  The narrow gauge straights will be $4.95 in the US and €4.95 in Europe.

 

17 minutes ago, Hod Carrier said:

This looks very promising. From nothing suddenly we have two separate projects developing 4-wide track. I'm very excited about this.

When and where might it be possible to buy track? Have you any plans for wider radius curves and points/track switches?

Hey Hod Carrier,

We're printing the first batch at this very moment.  If all goes well they should be in our 4DBrix bricklink store (http://www.bricklink.com/store/home.page?p=4DBrix#/shop) next week.  We'll have them in dark bluish gray and black.  We're located in the US but we have a distributor in Europe.  If you want to pre-order you can contact us on info@4dbrix.com.

We are certainly going to make narrow gauge switches.  Wider radius curves is an option too but we don't have any concrete plans at this point.

 

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This is great news! Now, I would like to point out that a small train wheel with a technic axle hole would be very useful, since the regular PF wheel is often out of proportion to the narrow gauge rolling stock.

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4 hours ago, ritzcrackerman said:

Was just having this discussion the other day with my train club - I would love a Train Wheel Small, Hole Notched for Wheels Holder Pin that would accept a technix axle: http://www.bricklink.com/v2/catalog/catalogitem.page?P=50254#T=C

Ok, that makes sense.  I created the model and printed a few.  I also create a model of wheel in between the 57999 and 50254. I printed them in dark gray because that's what I have on the printers at the moment, but I could do them in black.  The picture below shows the wheels compared to the LEGO train wheels.  Is that what you're looking for ?

4dbrix-train-wheels-1.jpg

4dbrix-train-wheels-2.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, xboxtravis7992 said:

Also if we are going to start our Narrow Gauge wish list I would love to see turnouts and switches made to... :)

Narrow gauge switches are on the to do list !  I already made a successful print of a curved narrow gauge section.  So now I need to merge the model of the straight and curved section and add a switch mechanism.  I'm not sure when I will do this because I want to focus on train automation during the coming weeks...

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Blimey!! You're a fast worker. :grin:

I'm not sure I follow the logic for making the small train wheel with a cross hole. The only reason I can see is because you want to use it to transmit drive, but it's too small to fit a gear onto the same axle without risking it fouling the track itself. For rolling stock, the existing wheels run on snap axles seem adequate. Have I missed something?

The intermediate sized wheel is of more interest though. I'd like to know how the tread diameter (not the flange) compares with the diameter of the 12T bevel gear. If it's a good match I might be in the market for several of these in black to try out on my 4-wide TRAXX. Will there be an option for a groove in the tread to accept a traction tyre of some sort?

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On 12/5/2016 at 6:24 PM, Lowa said:

Ok, that makes sense.  I created the model and printed a few.  I also create a model of wheel in between the 57999 and 50254. I printed them in dark gray because that's what I have on the printers at the moment, but I could do them in black.  The picture below shows the wheels compared to the LEGO train wheels.  Is that what you're looking for ?

4dbrix-train-wheels-1.jpg

4dbrix-train-wheels-2.jpg

 

Wow - you work fast!!! That's precisely what I'd been hoping for. Are you planning to sell these?  To be a driving wheel, it may need to have a slight groove to accommodate a small rubber O ring for adequate traction.

On 12/6/2016 at 3:17 AM, Hod Carrier said:

I'm not sure I follow the logic for making the small train wheel with a cross hole. The only reason I can see is because you want to use it to transmit drive, but it's too small to fit a gear onto the same axle without risking it fouling the track itself. For rolling stock, the existing wheels run on snap axles seem adequate. Have I missed something?

Intention is to transmit drive to small train wheels through a gearing system.  Railbricks Issue #12 (web archive here https://web.archive.org/web/20160307194049/http://railbricks.com/index.php/download_file/view/784/816/) has a narrow gage train I've been trying to replicate.  It calls for the small train wheel to be modified to fit a technic axle.

Edited by ritzcrackerman

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I will definitely buy some tracks and wheels once available,

An adapter from tracks to single rails like this but in 6 wide,
s-l300.jpg

half and quarter straights and half curves would also be nice.

Edited by jkj1909

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On 12/6/2016 at 6:17 AM, Hod Carrier said:

Blimey!! You're a fast worker. :grin:

I'm not sure I follow the logic for making the small train wheel with a cross hole. The only reason I can see is because you want to use it to transmit drive, but it's too small to fit a gear onto the same axle without risking it fouling the track itself. For rolling stock, the existing wheels run on snap axles seem adequate. Have I missed something?

The intermediate sized wheel is of more interest though. I'd like to know how the tread diameter (not the flange) compares with the diameter of the 12T bevel gear. If it's a good match I might be in the market for several of these in black to try out on my 4-wide TRAXX. Will there be an option for a groove in the tread to accept a traction tyre of some sort?

These are the diameters:

  • small LEGO train wheel (50254)
    • flange: 14.6 mm / 0.57"
    • tread: 8.2 mm / 032"
  • large LEGO train wheel (57878)
    • flange: 22.8 mm / 0.90 "
    • tread: 16.4 mm / 0.65"
  • 12T bevel gear: 12.7 mm / 0.50 "

So the small train wheel is slightly larger than the 12T bevel gear so it should work on straight and curved track.  But the tread diameter is too small to make it work on the cross tracks and switches.  

For my medium wheel I took the average diameter of the small and large LEGO wheel, this gives:

  • flange: 18.7 mm / 0.74 "
  • tread: 12.3 mm / 0.48"

So that's just too small for the 12T bevel gear. Strangely enough, the LEGO train wheel with traction tire (57999) is slightly bigger then the one without:

  • flange: 23.8 mm / 0.94 "
  • tread: 17.4 mm / 0.69"

Taking the average with the small wheel gives:

  • flange: 19.2 mm / 0.76 "
  • tread: 12.8 mm =/ 0.50"

So that's just large enough.  Maybe we should take a small safety margin of 0.2 mm and make the wheel with a tread diameter of 13mm and a flange diameter of 19.4mm.  What do you think ?

Having a version with a traction tire seems like a good idea.  Giving it a groove should not be a big deal, making a traction tire is a different story.  I could give it a try with a 'flexible' (= rubbery) filament.  I have never used that though, so I have no idea what to expect...

 

 

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1 hour ago, ritzcrackerman said:

Wow - you work fast!!! That's precisely what I'd been hoping for. Are you planning to sell these?  

Intention is to transmit drive to small train wheels through a gearing system.  Railbricks Issue #12 (web archive here https://web.archive.org/web/20160307194049/http://railbricks.com/index.php/download_file/view/784/816/) has a narrow gage train I've been trying to replicate.  It calls for the small train wheel to be modified to fit a technic axle.

Yes, everything we make is for sale in our 4DBrix bricklink store.

The ultimate goal is to create whatever you need to turn your 'LEGO train layout' into a 'model train layout made of LEGO (compatible) bricks'.  We want to create all the missing components to do that: specialty track segments, accessories like these narrow gauge wheels, etc.  We also want to provide everything you need to automate your train layout: motors, controllers, sensor and software.

If there is something that doesn't exist but you think it should, let us know and we'll take a look at it!

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6 hours ago, jkj1909 said:

I will definitely buy some tracks and wheels once available,

An adapter from tracks to single rails like this but in 6 wide,
s-l300.jpg

half and quarter straights and half curves would also be nice.

We're looking forward seeing you in our store!

About the adapter, that's a nice idea and not that hard now that we have the model for the narrow gauge track.  I made a slightly different design than you posted; I tried to give it a more 'LEGO train' feel.  I made 2 variants, see below.  The one on the left has a 'standard track section', the one on the right has a transition to match the shape of the single rails.  I think the one on the right is nicer... what do you think ?

4dbrix-narrow-gauge-adapter-1.jpg4dbrix-narrow-gauge-adapter-2.jpg

About the half (8 studs long) and quarter (4 studs long) straight tracks.  I already designed them for the standard gauge and I'll start making them soon.  Would you also want them for the narrow gauge ?

What do you mean with half curves ?  Do you mean a half of the standard LEGO curve ?  It's possible to do that, but it wouldn't be easy to get that into a layout because if you don't run the track horizontal/vertical it's very hard/impossible to close the loop.  I am thinking about making 'diagonal track' like we did for the monorail.  Those tracks allow you to run the track diagonally without any issues to close your layout.

Edited by Lowa

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7 hours ago, ritzcrackerman said:

Intention is to transmit drive to small train wheels through a gearing system.  Railbricks Issue #12 (web archive here https://web.archive.org/web/20160307194049/http://railbricks.com/index.php/download_file/view/784/816/) has a narrow gage train I've been trying to replicate.  It calls for the small train wheel to be modified to fit a technic axle.

That's an interesting little loco there. I'm assuming you're going to have a try at building this as a conventional adhesion loco rather than a cog driven loco as per the original. If I read the article correctly, driving this loco through the cog removed the need to modify the wheels as they were no longer needed to transmit the drive.

6 hours ago, Lowa said:

These are the diameters:

  • small LEGO train wheel (50254)
    • flange: 14.6 mm / 0.57"
    • tread: 8.2 mm / 032"
  • large LEGO train wheel (57878)
    • flange: 22.8 mm / 0.90 "
    • tread: 16.4 mm / 0.65"
  • 12T bevel gear: 12.7 mm / 0.50 "

So the small train wheel is slightly larger than the 12T bevel gear so it should work on straight and curved track.  But the tread diameter is too small to make it work on the cross tracks and switches.  

For my medium wheel I took the average diameter of the small and large LEGO wheel, this gives:

  • flange: 18.7 mm / 0.74 "
  • tread: 12.3 mm / 0.48"

So that's just too small for the 12T bevel gear. Strangely enough, the LEGO train wheel with traction tire (57999) is slightly bigger then the one without:

  • flange: 23.8 mm / 0.94 "
  • tread: 17.4 mm / 0.69"

Taking the average with the small wheel gives:

  • flange: 19.2 mm / 0.76 "
  • tread: 12.8 mm =/ 0.50"

So that's just large enough.  Maybe we should take a small safety margin of 0.2 mm and make the wheel with a tread diameter of 13mm and a flange diameter of 19.4mm.  What do you think ?

Having a version with a traction tire seems like a good idea.  Giving it a groove should not be a big deal, making a traction tire is a different story.  I could give it a try with a 'flexible' (= rubbery) filament.  I have never used that though, so I have no idea what to expect...

Thanks for the extra information. The comparison in diameters of the various wheels and the 12T bevel gear is very illuminating. I take your point about the suitability of the small wheel on plain track only, but personally I would want the option to allow the train to clear points and would welcome the extra clearance necessary.

On that basis I would give some thought to making the suggested adjustment to the dimensions of the medium wheel. Ideally it needs to be as small as possible and yet still provide enough clearance to carry the 12T bevel gear. However, given that the difference in diameter between this wheel and the gear is less than 0.5mm it's possible that the addition of a traction tyre would add enough additional diameter to give the desired clearance.

As for traction tyres, don't worry about providing these. It's possible to buy rubber O-rings in just about any size. Once the diameter is known it will be possible to buy O-rings in an appropriate size. 

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12 hours ago, Lowa said:

We're looking forward seeing you in our store!

About the adapter, that's a nice idea and not that hard now that we have the model for the narrow gauge track.  I made a slightly different design than you posted; I tried to give it a more 'LEGO train' feel.  I made 2 variants, see below.  The one on the left has a 'standard track section', the one on the right has a transition to match the shape of the single rails.  I think the one on the right is nicer... what do you think ?

4dbrix-narrow-gauge-adapter-1.jpg4dbrix-narrow-gauge-adapter-2.jpg

About the half (8 studs long) and quarter (4 studs long) straight tracks.  I already designed them for the standard gauge and I'll start making them soon.  Would you also want them for the narrow gauge ?

What do you mean with half curves ?  Do you mean a half of the standard LEGO curve ?  It's possible to do that, but it wouldn't be easy to get that into a layout because if you don't run the track horizontal/vertical it's very hard/impossible to close the loop.  I am thinking about making 'diagonal track' like we did for the monorail.  Those tracks allow you to run the track diagonally without any issues to close your layout.

 

Wow, Fast and Perfect work, I will look forward to buy some in your BL shop

The pic with the design from me, was just to give you an idea what I meant, your design is spot on what I wanted, and the Right (with transition) one looks better

Quote: Would you also want them for the narrow gauge ? Yes PLease

Quote Do you mean a half of the standard LEGO curve ? Yes, Half the length and number of degrees, so 2 pieces equals 1 Lego curve

Edited by jkj1909

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