Succeeding with a Pirates(ish) IDEAS set

[ejred]

I wanted to see if I could spark any discussion about what is the best approach to getting a LEGO Ideas set that is somehow aligned with the Pirates theme all the way into production?

When I say Pirates-aligned, I'm mostly thinking of a set including a sailing ship. One could certainly do something connected with Pirates that doesn't have a ship--a 17th/18th century port city tavern, for example. But I would probably find that less interesting that something with a ship. Do other people agree?

I'm assuming that actually doing a "Pirates" set or "Pirates of the Caribbean" is a bad bet. Even if it got support, LEGO would say 'overlap' and that will be the end.

Clearly if one can find a theme that hooks onto some cultural touchpoint that would be really helpful in getting to the necessary milestones.

I thought the Beagle set was brilliant. Clearly it connected with a lot of people. One key question is why LEGO did not approve it. Did they shy away from the (ridiculous IMO) controversies related to Creationism? Was it an issue with the execution of the set, having brick-built sails and too many pieces? Any thoughts?

Some ideas for other approaches that occurred to me:

• Darwin retry with a sub-1000 piece set
  
• Explorers (Magellan or Cook most likely?) - pro: fairly well known, exciting, non-militaristic; con: backlash against European imperialism, still a history theme with limited reach
  
• Fictional Navy (Hornblower, Aubrey/Maturin, etc.) - pro: dedicated audiences, the Master & Commander movie; con: small audience, too militaristic?
  
• Boston Tea Party - pro: patriotic, interesting and very famous; con: totally US centric idea
  
• Moby Dick - pro: famous literature many people assigned to read; con: old book many people forced to read, hard to incorporate awesome whale as part of a "play set"?
  
• Treasure Island - pro: fairly well known, had (old) Disney movie; con: huge overlap with generic pirates theme
  
• Chinese exploration fleet of Zheng He - pro: amazing history, multicultural; con: pretty obscure, Chinese ship styles not to everyone's taste?
  
• Americas' Cup (maybe from some historic period/race) - pro: fairly well known, sporting angle; con: new ships are kind of odd, theme too modern and "yachty" for pirate fit?
  
• Clipper Ship (tea races, Cutty Sark, etc.) - pro: non-militaristic, evocative; con: obscure, hard to work into Lego ship style, no real "story" attached
  

What do people think? Could it actually happen? Are there other suggestions for themes I didn't think of that would have broad interest and also appeal to LEGO?

Even once you have a theme with broad appeal to both users and LEGO, then still it comes down to a tremendous amount of execution, presentation and promotion. Most, if not all, of these themes have been tried before with lackluster submissions. But choosing the right theme seems the place to start.

[Captain Dee]

I generally don't pay any attention to Ideas because... the overwhelming majority of all submissions never make it. Sure, some are ridiculous with astronomic piece counts and really advanced techniques, but lots of good ones that would make nice sets get axed, and some that have made it to production had me scratching my head and asking "Really? How? Why?"

To attempt to answer your question - unfortunately I don't have any good input to offer with regards to the best approach. But I think you have some good ideas. I often wonder if sailing ships just might be too specialized for Ideas though. They'll always be somewhat expensive unless they're really small.

Darwin and the Beagle: the first one might have just been too big (too many parts). Lose the brickbuilt sails, possibly shrink it down or dumb it down just a little, and it might stand a chance. I doubt any potential controversy played a role in the outcome.

The explorers sounds great to me, but... it would likely appeal to a very small audience. I'm thinking the models would have to be tiny (like the narrow prefab ships such as the Cross Bone Clipper) to stand any chance at all, and I have little faith it would ever happen in any capacity unless the set(s) were fantastic designs with good value. Not holding my breath on this one.

Fictional navy: you said it with small but dedicated audience. Lots of fun for fans, boooring for non-fans. (I think historic stuff suffers more in that regard than sci-fi/futuristic.) Probably never gonna happen, despite having good potential.

Boston Tea Party (or similar ideas): I'm American and I wouldn't touch this with a ten-foot pole. Revolutions don't exactly make good material for the international market.

Moby Dick: again perhaps too small of an audience. Never read it, and not planning to. Perhaps a bit more limited in terms of set possibilities. And whaling isn't exactly popular these days...

Chinese: you pretty well nailed it. Excellent history lesson potential, but I doubt the ships would sell as well as the European types. I could be wrong though.

Clippers: excellent idea, again probably too limited of an audience, and they'd need to be pretty big sets to look sensible at the normal Lego ship scale.

America's Cup: perhaps the most unique idea here, and sadly perhaps too specialized. It doesn't really fit as Pirates-related to me - but it doesn't have to either. A modern version could work with City...

I saved Treasure Island for last because I think it has the most potential, if not for Ideas then for a complete replacement to the same-old same-old Pirates set ideas. It would mesh with prior sets/waves of sets really well and there are numerous options for set ideas. It's a classic, it's known worldwide, and I dare say the original 1989 sets drew some inspiration. It wouldn't be a drastic departure from what Lego has done before, and I think things like the Admiral Benbow Inn, the Spyglass, the stockade, the Hispaniola, and scenes from the island would sell well. Plus they could be re-imagined a few times (the way TLG does Star Wars) without getting stale. And of course they would have an excellent story and lots of colorful characters: who doesn't want a Long John Silver minifig?

As for doing this through Ideas, though, I have no clue. Perhaps a single set to test the waters, but it would have to be fantastic. I do think Treasure Island has a much larger potential audience than the others and might stand a better chance that way. The rest are all fine ideas, but they seem too limited to ever sell well, and I think Lego probably suspects this too. But you don't know without trying.

[Capn Frank]

...

I pretty much agree with Captain Dee here. Treasure Island (or a version of it) would be your best bet for Ideas.

Explorers would be much more preferable by myself.

Asian styled exploration ships would be awesome.

But not enough interest because people don't know about them.

You've got Chinese Treasure ships, Japanese Red Seal Ships, and Korean Turtle ships.

[ejred]

Thanks for the inputs!

I agree, Treasure Island would be a really nice way for LEGO to do a more-or-less standard Pirate wave that has some freshness to it. One ship, one fort, maybe one tavern, several smaller sets (Ben Gunn's cave, digging for treasure, landing party or whatever)

Harder to make it work for Ideas, which is a "one and done," and also is not supposed to overlap too much with things LEGO already does.

I think you would definitely need a shore location or two, or else no chance it would click. Plus you potentially need a lot of minifigs (*minimum* 6 I guess?). Starts getting big.

Still, I'll try throwing some stuff together and see what is possible...

[Captain Dee]

You're right, Treasure Island would be a lot easier as a wave than a single Ideas set, just because there are so many possibilities. And yep, you'd need several minifigs (Long John Silver, Jim Hawkins, Doctor Livesy, Squire Trelawney, Cap'n Smollet, and Ben Gunn would pretty much be mandatory, and maybe a Billy Bones for good measure). And you're right, it gets big fast.

I've been wanting to try my hand at building some Treasure Island-themed "sets" for quite some time, hence my interest in this topic. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[Staslegomaster]

Yes, yes. I think lots of LEGO pirate fans are interested what should be done to make their projects become true. So am I. So I'll be thankful for any useful advice. And besides

Thanks for your fast and detailed reply and support. Any healthy criticism is welcome because if somebody criticizes my creations it can mean they like them. And are attentive to details. If I am completely honest I don't see a purely pirates set getting anywhere close to the 10k support though it's a dream of any LEGO fan. -And The Flying Dutchman can prove the possibility. I think pirate Lego Ideas are always worth trying. Perhaps LEGO fans will support pirate projects not only because they like them but also just as a way of telling Lego we are still here and let them not forget us. I am trying to have fun with my Lego and want everyone else to enjoy it too, in whatever way they choose. And good luck with your projects. The more projects were have, the more chances we'll have to make LEGO pirates more succesful till their 30th jubilee. TLG is working on it. Maybe in 2017 we'll see LEGO ninjago movie, and in 2019 - LEGO pirates movie.

[Capn Frank]

For Ideas and one set, the Hispaniola should be that idea, and keep it limited to a similar size and crew as the Black Pearl or Queen Anne's Revenge.

I think I'll

Treasure Island. There may be additional ideas in the original book that is missed in the differing cartoon and movie renditions.

[Aanchir]

Chinese ships sound interesting, and the LEGO Group might look favorably on a good one since they have been trying to expand their business in Asia. Might also have some degree of crossover appeal with Ninjago fans, while still being distinct enough not to be in direct competition with that theme. Basing it on a historical fleet might hit some of the same scholarly buttons that projects like the Saturn V Rocket have (even though the humanities aren't quite as trendy as STEM right now).

And if you were to base a project on, say, Ching Shih's Red Flag Fleet, then it might also appeal to feminists and others who like projects that raise awareness of successful and diverse women in history, much like the recent Women of NASA project. Ching Shih might not be the role model every parent wants for their daughter, but I think you'd still find an audience eager to see such an awesome and powerful female icon represented in LEGO. Note that Ching Shih is the subject of a TV limited series currently in development, which could potentially generate wider interest in her story and in Chinese pirate history that you could tap into.

You're right that it might be tough to get the LEGO Pirates community to rally around such a set, since it isn't traditional LEGO Pirates subject matter. Even so, that uniqueness might actually HELP its chances. The LEGO Ideas Exo-Suit had little in common with actual Classic Space sets, but by exemplifying the spirit of LEGO Space rather than specifically emulating something the theme had seen before, it garnered a lot of support from the Spacer community. A lot of the criticisms of the latest batch of LEGO Pirates sets came from it feeling like stuff we'd seen before — and the best way to overcome that sense would be to take a risk with something new and not yet proven.

As for the specifics of such a project, I'd say to aim for a $100 price point (so, around the same size as 6243 or 70413). The biggest LEGO Ideas set revealed to date is the new Caterham, which is $80, and the Saturn V Rocket is likely to push the peak price for LEGO Ideas sets even higher. A set much bigger or more parts-intensive than those two pirate ships would still be super risky, but since this would be an entirely different style of pirate ship, it wouldn't need to be bigger in order to stand out.

So, is anybody willing to try and take the plunge and design a project like that? I have little experience building LEGO pirate ships but after giving it this much thought, I'm really liking the idea. So if nobody else is eager to give it a shot I'd be happy to take a stab at it. But if some more experienced shipwright wants to give it a try, go for it!

[Staslegomaster]

For Ideas and one set, the Hispaniola should be that idea, and keep it limited to a similar size and crew as the Black Pearl or Queen Anne's Revenge.

I think I'll

Treasure Island. There may be additional ideas in the original book that is missed in the differing cartoon and movie renditions.

I guess there are enough LEGO fans of Stevenson to make Hispaniola a real set.

[Staslegomaster]

Chinese ships sound interesting, and the LEGO Group might look favorably on a good one since they have been trying to expand their business in Asia. Might also have some degree of crossover appeal with Ninjago fans, while still being distinct enough not to be in direct competition with that theme. Basing it on a historical fleet might hit some of the same scholarly buttons that projects like the Saturn V Rocket have (even though the humanities aren't quite as trendy as STEM right now).

And if you were to base a project on, say, Ching Shih's Red Flag Fleet, then it might also appeal to feminists and others who like projects that raise awareness of successful and diverse women in history, much like the recent Women of NASA project. Ching Shih might not be the role model every parent wants for their daughter, but I think you'd still find an audience eager to see such an awesome and powerful female icon represented in LEGO. Note that Ching Shih is the subject of a TV limited series currently in development, which could potentially generate wider interest in her story and in Chinese pirate history that you could tap into.

You're right that it might be tough to get the LEGO Pirates community to rally around such a set, since it isn't traditional LEGO Pirates subject matter. Even so, that uniqueness might actually HELP its chances. The LEGO Ideas Exo-Suit had little in common with actual Classic Space sets, but by exemplifying the spirit of LEGO Space rather than specifically emulating something the theme had seen before, it garnered a lot of support from the Spacer community. A lot of the criticisms of the latest batch of LEGO Pirates sets came from it feeling like stuff we'd seen before — and the best way to overcome that sense would be to take a risk with something new and not yet proven.

As for the specifics of such a project, I'd say to aim for a $100 price point (so, around the same size as 6243 or 70413). The biggest LEGO Ideas set revealed to date is the new Caterham, which is $80, and the Saturn V Rocket is likely to push the peak price for LEGO Ideas sets even higher. A set much bigger or more parts-intensive than those two pirate ships would still be super risky, but since this would be an entirely different style of pirate ship, it wouldn't need to be bigger in order to stand out.

So, is anybody willing to try and take the plunge and design a project like that? I have little experience building LEGO pirate ships but after giving it this much thought, I'm really liking the idea. So if nobody else is eager to give it a shot I'd be happy to take a stab at it. But if some more experienced shipwright wants to give it a try, go for it!

Hi,Aanchir. I guess Asian pirates can become a new wave and become as succesful as historic correct samurai 1999 in the series of not Europian LEGO Castles. But the only official LEGO ship of Asian type is Orient expedition at the beginning of 2000-s. Besides a ship of Lord of the Rings had Asiant sails.