Secret Enemies - Day Seven

[jluck]

A Mafia policy has been passed!

At this time, the mayor can pick one player to kill. He must announce it in this thread here. Not in PM.

You have 24 hours to decide. Please use this time wisely.

At this point I think it's safe to say I trust just about no one. Do we have a way to overrule the kill? A mayor passing scum policies isnt necessarily someone I want controlling a kill.

[Umbra-Manis]

Well, there were at least two mafia policies, since that's what I received. I think unless we can say with certainty that someone is scum (Which we can't at this point) we should just kill scott, since he isn't doing anything.

[jluck]

Well, there were at least two mafia policies, since that's what I received. I think unless we can say with certainty that someone is scum (Which we can't at this point) we should just kill scott, since he isn't doing anything.

As I recall someone saying earlier, we don't find the allegiance of the dead, correct? This, I think, would do a great disservice to the game mechanics IMO. Bob, would you consider revealing the deads allegiance? Here's my case: if we don't find out the allegiance, the kill is useless. Even if there's a player universally seen as scum, killing them only prevents them from serving in government which is precisely what a vote does. So a kill with no alignment just results in one less player and no real change in gameplay in the later rounds. Conversely, a revealed allegiance gives us discussion material not only about previous governments but about the current mayor as well. So Bob, even if it's a break from the "real" game I hope you'll consider this modification.

[Actor Builder]

So Bob, even if it's a break from the "real" game I hope you'll consider this modification.

And get this, if you don't consider this, I move we kill you, Bob.

[Bob]

As I recall someone saying earlier, we don't find the allegiance of the dead, correct? This, I think, would do a great disservice to the game mechanics IMO. Bob, would you consider revealing the deads allegiance? Here's my case: if we don't find out the allegiance, the kill is useless. Even if there's a player universally seen as scum, killing them only prevents them from serving in government which is precisely what a vote does. So a kill with no alignment just results in one less player and no real change in gameplay in the later rounds. Conversely, a revealed allegiance gives us discussion material not only about previous governments but about the current mayor as well. So Bob, even if it's a break from the "real" game I hope you'll consider this modification.

I've told you all that I view this as a beta test and I want all your feedback. As a result, players killed will have their alliances revealed.

[jluck]

I've told you all that I view this as a beta test and I want all your feedback. As a result, players killed will have their alliances revealed.

Hu-zah!!!

Thanks host, seems like a good tweak.

[Chromeknight]

In terms of play, the mayors kill isn't meant to be useful.

It's a penalty for stuffing up the game so far and not rooting out the scum.

It can be used to off the Godfather and win.

So let's do that.

Unless Lindsey herself is the GF (and boy, wouldn't I feel stupid!) we have a shot at doing this.

There are ten names to choose from. Who is it? And WHY?

Ralph -either a townie who unmasked a scum or a scum who dobbed in a townie. But unlikely to be the GF

Joshua - If he's the GF he's the unluckiest one ever, being made mayor, drawing three ScumPols (or two and being dumb enough to toss the town) and then having to pick someone to investigate, hoping he'd hit a scum... Or he could be a scum who tried to clear the GF by TCCing them or investigating them. So. Probably not GF even if scum.

Scott - who is Scott? What has he done? Is he the GF and hiding, waiting to be made TCC?

Eric - twice made TCC. Passed one of each. Third time the charm? GF in waiting?

Patricia - twice made TCC. Passed one of each. Third time the charm? GF in waiting?

Anne -The target of Joshua's investigation. Proclaimed town by someone who may be scum? Seems like a valid shot at being GF

Michael - Fed Eric a TownPol. Has been active and involved. Could be scum but gut says not GF

Edward - if he's the GF, he's been on the spot since the start given he was the first mayor. But probably Town. Actually, I've seen his PM from Bob. Definitely town.

Christina - Mayor at the turn, so the only one to know for certain what's in the second deck. A bold position for the GF to be in, again, gut says no.

Robert - Picked by a possibly scum mayor to take the fall for a ScumPol or a picked to be cleared by passing a TownPol and hit bad luck? If Joshua is scum, he might have been bold enough to signal to the GF like that. But Robert has been active and helpful. My bet is not GF.

So. my short list is

Anne, Scott, Eric and Patricia.

What's yours? And why?

[jluck]

Edward - if he's the GF, he's been on the spot since the start given he was the first mayor. But probably Town. Actually, I've seen his PM from Bob. Definitely town.

Wait, what's this? How have you seen his pm?

[Chromeknight]

Wait, what's this? How have you seen his pm?

It was sent to me by Bob. Dude, I'm Edward. I know I'm not the Godfather, but if others aren't going to leave me off their lists, why should I not be on my list too?

Still, I'm not the Godfather. Are you?

[mediumsnowman]

I say kill Ralph. He's most likely scum.

[Khscarymovie4]

I'm not sure if I will be able to get on by the deadline tomorrow. So I'm going to have to pick someone now. I choose to kill Scott. He has not posted since day 2 and has been very useless during the entire game.

[Chromeknight]

I say kill Ralph. He's most likely scum.

Most likely scum won't cut it. Do you think he's the Godfather or not?

If not, who do you think is?

I'm not sure if I will be able to get on by the deadline tomorrow. So I'm going to have to pick someone now. I choose to kill Scott. He has not posted since day 2 and has been very useless during the entire game.

Soft target.

Pick a side, Ralph or Joshua?

Whose input do you want before making the call about who to remove from council? Why the rush?

Sure he was on my list, and I stand by his being there. But there are harder questions that can be asked. At least point at someone who will say something interesting before they go.

[Tariq j]

I'm not sure if I will be able to get on by the deadline tomorrow. So I'm going to have to pick someone now. I choose to kill Scott. He has not posted since day 2 and has been very useless during the entire game.

Killing Scott seems pointless, he's been inactive since Day 2, and it seems unlikely he's going to come back. It would just be a waste.

[Dragonfire]

I've told you all that I view this as a beta test and I want all your feedback. As a result, players killed will have their alliances revealed.

Thanks.

Lindsey, don't kill Scott, it will tell us nothing. I'd advise killing one of Anne, Joshua and Ralph to sort that mess out.

[Chromeknight]

Sigh.

Lots of directing, not much reasoning.

Do you think Ralph or Joshua are the GF? Really? Why?

If not, why use the kill on them? Who is the Godfather? That's who we should aim at.

This isn't Mafia, the kill isn't a terminal investigation, it's a move to win (or lose) the game.

[Peanuts]

I think you should kill Ralph.

He's been so scummy the entire time, and keeps talking about Fish and Hats. Like Dr. Seuss. He's crazy. Clearly he is the scum.

I agree with...Ralph? Wait, what? Is this your strategy, play loonie? How can you not kill him?

In terms of play, the mayors kill isn't meant to be useful.

It's a penalty for stuffing up the game so far and not rooting out the scum.

It can be used to off the Godfather and win.

So let's do that.

Unless Lindsey herself is the GF (and boy, wouldn't I feel stupid!) we have a shot at doing this.

There are ten names to choose from. Who is it? And WHY?

Ralph -either a townie who unmasked a scum or a scum who dobbed in a townie. But unlikely to be the GF

Joshua - If he's the GF he's the unluckiest one ever, being made mayor, drawing three ScumPols (or two and being dumb enough to toss the town) and then having to pick someone to investigate, hoping he'd hit a scum... Or he could be a scum who tried to clear the GF by TCCing them or investigating them. So. Probably not GF even if scum.

Scott - who is Scott? What has he done? Is he the GF and hiding, waiting to be made TCC?

Eric - twice made TCC. Passed one of each. Third time the charm? GF in waiting?

Patricia - twice made TCC. Passed one of each. Third time the charm? GF in waiting?

Anne -The target of Joshua's investigation. Proclaimed town by someone who may be scum? Seems like a valid shot at being GF

Michael - Fed Eric a TownPol. Has been active and involved. Could be scum but gut says not GF

Edward - if he's the GF, he's been on the spot since the start given he was the first mayor. But probably Town. Actually, I've seen his PM from Bob. Definitely town.

Christina - Mayor at the turn, so the only one to know for certain what's in the second deck. A bold position for the GF to be in, again, gut says no.

Robert - Picked by a possibly scum mayor to take the fall for a ScumPol or a picked to be cleared by passing a TownPol and hit bad luck? If Joshua is scum, he might have been bold enough to signal to the GF like that. But Robert has been active and helpful. My bet is not GF.

So. my short list is

Anne, Scott, Eric and Patricia.

What's yours? And why?

I disagree about Eric, Scott and Patricia. I would like to echo the sentiment of others, it's best to resolve this situation. Kill Ralph, confirm Anne and me town. then we will have enough TCCs so we don't have to accept someone with unsure allegiance. This is better than taking a shot at killing the godfather, but not gaining any info if we just kill a sleeping townie. Also, please don't kill Anne. She is town, I know that. I vouch for her. In fact, she is the only confirmed townie, killing her would mean, once you find out she is own, there is still the very low chance of me being scum and clearing a townie for whatever reason. If you kill me and see I am town, you will know for sure she is town. If you kill Ralph, you will have two townies alive and a scum dead.

I'm not sure if I will be able to get on by the deadline tomorrow. So I'm going to have to pick someone now. I choose to kill Scott. He has not posted since day 2 and has been very useless during the entire game.

This is so, so scummy. First, against all odds, a scum policy is passed. Then you choose to kill someone who will give us no info. I don't like this at all.

Sigh.

Lots of directing, not much reasoning.

Do you think Ralph or Joshua are the GF? Really? Why?

If not, why use the kill on them? Who is the Godfather? That's who we should aim at.

This isn't Mafia, the kill isn't a terminal investigation, it's a move to win (or lose) the game.

We don't have any investigations, so this is the only way to get people we can fully trust beyond a flimsy town read, and our town reads will never be good without lynches (or even accusations) to back them up. And we need people we can trust so we don't vote the godfather as TCC by accident. Your guts says it can't be Christina or Michael or Robert, but what if they are? I say kill Ralph, even if he probably isn't the godfather. Then again, he hasn't been acting like he has a scum team to advise him, so maybe he even is.

[Chromeknight]

Take a moment. Chant to yourself, this is not mafia, this is not mafia, this is not mafia.

We don't have any investigations, so this is the only way to get people we can fully trust beyond a flimsy town read, and our town reads will never be good without lynches (or even accusations) to back them up. And we need people we can trust so we don't vote the godfather as TCC by accident. Your guts says it can't be Christina or Michael or Robert, but what if they are? I say kill Ralph, even if he probably isn't the godfather. Then again, he hasn't been acting like he has a scum team to advise him, so maybe he even is.

Town reads no good without lynches? You need to get better reads.

I agree we need people we can trust, but this game is not so simple. We don't get to chose the mayor and the mayor can often cause a scum policy to be passed regardless of the townieness of the TCC. The solution is to start failing governments of people who aren't trusted.

I am happy to listen to an argument (or Mblocks even a gut read) on why you think Christina, Michael or Robert may be the Godfather. Why they would do the things they've done, why other people would chose them in certain ways if they were. I could be wrong. But I'll stand by my read and vote accordingly until persuaded otherwise. Don't come in and just pooh-pooh what I put out there, make your own case, and defend it.

I'll say it clearly. From what I've seen Ralph isn't the Godfather.

He gets randomly picked to be the mayor. That could happen to anyone.

He draws either 3 ScumPol or 2ScumPol and a TownPol. You, Joshua have argued that his drawing 3 is stupid small odds. Possible but not likely. So he's either plain scum who tosses a town or town who tosses a scum.

Let's assume for the sake of arguement, he is GF and got unlucky with 3ScumPol, what follows.

He accuses you of being scum. Remember, if he is the GF, he must initiate the contact with them, they know who he is but can't start the conversation.

So if he were the GF, calling you out must be a lie, since he'd contact you quietly if it were truth (and announce you town to boot).

What then? Is he just making a scummy move so he'd be noticed by the scum? That doesn't work, they already know who he is (if he is the GF) and he needs to figure out who they are. In the meantime he needs to play as townie as possible so he'd be a valid vote for TCC after 4 ScumPol.

But no, he makes noise and thrashes around poking at you, guaranteeing he'll never be voted TCC.

So. If he is the GF, he'd have to be so utterly clueless at doing it he's not a threat. Or, as I assert, he isn't the GF.

Take aim at someone else.

If Lindsey is town, the priority is to use the kill to win the game by killing the GF. It's not an investigation tool.

Let's take a counter case to killing Ralph above.

Assume we do, and he flips town.

You (Joshua) would be more or less confirmed scum, but still alive to vote. And, oh, gee. If the GF hasn't come forward yet, look who is a safe person to claim to!

Plus you might have been telling the truth about Anne, but no way would we trust her, so that's another investigation wasted.

Doesn't look good for town there. You either need to be right or we're stuffed.

What if we leave you both alive. We know with certainty one of you is scum. Neither of you will ever be TCC and we'll vote no to anything you both vote yes to, knowing that if at least one scum is happy with it, it can't be good.

For those townies under the pump. I get that it's frustrating telling the truth and not being believed.

Man up. Make your case. Loudly. Often. See who pushes back. See who doesn't buy it but has no good reason. See who can be swayed. Don't give up, be the hero of the game.

[fhomess]

We have to kill Anne. Anne is the only player we have any reasonable expectation might be the godfather. In the case that Joshua is scum, he investigated Anne as town in order to reveal himself as scum and unite the GF with the rest of the scum team. There's really no other case to be made for anyone else as potentially the GF.

I believe that either Anne is the GF or Anne is town. I think it's extremely unlikely that Joshua (as scum) would clear another known scum in this way and not use it on the Godfather. The whole point of the scum's second win condition is to get the GF elected later in the game, so clearing the GF would be a good way to do that. If Joshua is not scum, then Anne is town and killing her will not end the game, at which point we'll know two things: 1. that Joshua is really town, and 2. that Ralph is really scum.

You can make a case for literally anyone else being the GF, but you can't make any sort of argument for one over the other.

Killing Scott is complete bollocks, btw.

[Umbra-Manis]

Yes, killing scott is useless now. I suggested that before Bob said he would reveal the alignment. I agree with Christina's logic for killing the person who gives us the most info. Sorry anne! (If you're town)

[fhomess]

FWIW, I think the scum team is Joshua, Lindsey, Scott, with Anne as GF.

[Dragonfire]

We have to kill Anne. Anne is the only player we have any reasonable expectation might be the godfather. In the case that Joshua is scum, he investigated Anne as town in order to reveal himself as scum and unite the GF with the rest of the scum team. There's really no other case to be made for anyone else as potentially the GF.

I believe that either Anne is the GF or Anne is town. I think it's extremely unlikely that Joshua (as scum) would clear another known scum in this way and not use it on the Godfather. The whole point of the scum's second win condition is to get the GF elected later in the game, so clearing the GF would be a good way to do that. If Joshua is not scum, then Anne is town and killing her will not end the game, at which point we'll know two things: 1. that Joshua is really town, and 2. that Ralph is really scum.

You can make a case for literally anyone else being the GF, but you can't make any sort of argument for one over the other.

Killing Scott is complete bollocks, btw.

Exactly. I was going to post something like this before, but didn't have enough time. Killing Anne would let us know for sure who is scum out of Joshua and Ralph, and hopefully end the game.

Even if Scott is scum, that doesn't accomplish anything since as he is perma-AFK, he's not going to be elected into any position any time soon. His chance of being the Godfather is literally the same as a random person's chance at this point. Lindsey, I don't actually trust you anymore, not because of the mafia policy passing, but because of your kill choice. Anne is the obvious choice, followed by one of Joshua and Ralph, yet you want to kill someone random who just might be scum? Poor playing or scum playing, that's what I say.

[mediumsnowman]

If killing me and finding out for certain I'm town will convince you Joshua is town and Ralph is scum, absolutely do it. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. It's not like I'm doing much anyways.

[Dragonfire]

If killing me and finding out for certain I'm town will convince you Joshua is town and Ralph is scum, absolutely do it. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. It's not like I'm doing much anyways.

I'm sorry if you're town, but town wins instantly if we kill the Godfather, and you're our only lead for the Godfather....

[jluck]

All of this logic is screaming into a vacuum if our beloved mayor doesn't rejoin us.

[Peanuts]

Town reads no good without lynches? You need to get better reads.

Town reads no good without accusations. People have accused each other much, much less than in a mafia game.

I agree we need people we can trust, but this game is not so simple. We don't get to chose the mayor and the mayor can often cause a scum policy to be passed regardless of the townieness of the TCC. The solution is to start failing governments of people who aren't trusted.

I agree we need to start using our ability to vote down governments. But having two people cleared is so much better than having one cleared. It also doubles the chances that we get a mayor who will not drop a town policy, and we will have two candidates TCC. We need any trustworthy person we can get.

I am happy to listen to an argument (or Mblocks even a gut read) on why you think Christina, Michael or Robert may be the Godfather. Why they would do the things they've done, why other people would chose them in certain ways if they were. I could be wrong. But I'll stand by my read and vote accordingly until persuaded otherwise. Don't come in and just pooh-pooh what I put out there, make your own case, and defend it.

Between Christina, Michael and you one has dropped a town policy. I suppose usually that would be a risky thing to do for a godfather, especially with nothing to gain, as for you and Michael. Would a godfather drop a town card so they can pass two scum cards on? It puts them on the line, but if they feel it's necessary to win? If it was Christina, I guess she doesn't know who is scum, but she should reckon between Ralph and me, with two others who could have dropped the town card, she would at least not get killed for it.

Robert is simple: I am a town mayor, I accidentally pick the godfather as TCC. I get three scum cards, he gets two. No choice here. Not even that much bad luck, because I can testify he got wto scum cards.

I'll say it clearly. From what I've seen Ralph isn't the Godfather.

He gets randomly picked to be the mayor. That could happen to anyone.

He draws either 3 ScumPol or 2ScumPol and a TownPol. You, Joshua have argued that his drawing 3 is stupid small odds. Possible but not likely. So he's either plain scum who tosses a town or town who tosses a scum.

Let's assume for the sake of arguement, he is GF and got unlucky with 3ScumPol, what follows.

He accuses you of being scum. Remember, if he is the GF, he must initiate the contact with them, they know who he is but can't start the conversation.

So if he were the GF, calling you out must be a lie, since he'd contact you quietly if it were truth (and announce you town to boot).

What then? Is he just making a scummy move so he'd be noticed by the scum? That doesn't work, they already know who he is (if he is the GF) and he needs to figure out who they are. In the meantime he needs to play as townie as possible so he'd be a valid vote for TCC after 4 ScumPol.

But no, he makes noise and thrashes around poking at you, guaranteeing he'll never be voted TCC.

So. If he is the GF, he'd have to be so utterly clueless at doing it he's not a threat. Or, as I assert, he isn't the GF.

Well, he did today just tell us we should kill him. I have no idea what he's doing anymore. Well, if he's the godfather he cannot have gotten a town investigation on anyone other than me, he wouldn't want to claim I'm scum if it might be true. So either he found the scum and they told him I'm town, or he found me town. I used to think Robert would have set him up by telling him to investigate me, but as he was the first to point of how scummy Ralph voting down today's government (which, in retrospect, might have been a good thing), I guess I was wrong. So maybe he actually followed Robert's advise to investigate me hoping I'm scum, and found me town. So he can't say that I'm town, or else he will double-confirm Anne. Also, people were suspicious of his behavior before, and then he passed a scum policy, so maybe he thought people wouldn't believe him that three scum cards were drawn twice in a rown, so he had to claim scum on me. Or he is just a random mafia member. If this was a mafia game, I would wonder if he is the jester. His behavior has been so erratic he could be anything.

Let's take a counter case to killing Ralph above.

Assume we do, and he flips town.

You (Joshua) would be more or less confirmed scum, but still alive to vote. And, oh, gee. If the GF hasn't come forward yet, look who is a safe person to claim to!

Plus you might have been telling the truth about Anne, but no way would we trust her, so that's another investigation wasted.

Doesn't look good for town there. You either need to be right or we're stuffed.

If you kill Anne, Ralph is also safe to claim to. If I was scum, wouldn't Anne be the godfather already? Isn't that the whole reason you want to kill her? So, you kill Anne, Ralph is alive, and me. One confirmed town. As you said, we have limited control over the mayors, and only one person who can be fully trusted. Even if I'm TCC on one day, there will be another on the next day. We might choose one of Christina, Michael, Robert and you. Maybe not Robert, while he has been "active and helpful", given the set-up of the game, it's nothing scum can't fake, as there's little direct scum-hunting. The others being godfather hinges on them doing something that would be contrarian to their goal of appearing townie, so I guess they could be good choices.

If killing me and finding out for certain I'm town will convince you Joshua is town and Ralph is scum, absolutely do it. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. It's not like I'm doing much anyways.

Would a godfather say "just kill me"? Probably not. Killing Ralph offers the biggest pay-off in my opinion. I understand that killing Anne gives us a guaranteed trusted townie and a shot at taking out the godfather, but it hurts the town and it might make the difference between winning and losing.