Is anyone else fearing that Nexo Knights is meaning NO new castle them

[Itaria No Shintaku]

1 hour ago, Aanchir said:

Source? Because I've seen no evidence to back that up. In particular, Space Police III got two more waves after its initial launch — that doesn't happen with "big flops".

Maybe where you are, Galaxy Squad didn't sell well. But that's hardly any indication that the same is true everywhere. And even sets from highly successful themes like City, Friends, and Ninjago sometimes linger on shelves for years depending on where you look.

More to the point, LEGO has a tendency of revisiting their classic themes from time to time even when they DON'T expect them to sell as well as their top brands. It's easy as a fan to think that themes can neatly be divided into "good sellers" and "bad sellers", but the truth is that it's more of a spectrum. And as long as LEGO is cautious with how much they invest in each of their product lines, there's often still a lot of money to be made in that space in between mega-hits like Star Wars and City and poor performers like The Lone Ranger or Heroica.

I have my sources. I  cannot spread them, but the best I can say is TLG gave me two sets FOR FREE of Galaxy Squad. Which never happened for other themes. Space Police III was 6/10, Alien Conquest 4/10 and Galaxy Squad 2/10 out of my sources.
I can understand that you are both basing that on personal anecdotal experience, not the case for me. But I can't step more on this terrain as I'd break promises I made to TLG. I can of course speak of those privately.

EDIT: PS: I don't want to start a debate. If someone of you wants to think that Galaxy Squad wasn't a flop you're very welcomed to think whatever you want to think. I myself have reasons to state the very opposite, but if this leads in a forum-fight, that's not my cup of tea. If you can cope with the fact that TLG asked me personally NOT to give some piece of information about this very topic, I thank you. If you think that I am inventing all from scratch, you don't know me, as if you did, you wouldn't doubt about me.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Itaria No Shintaku

[SirBlake]

I know you have your sources, so I'm certainly not going to doubt your assertions. With that said, do you have any insight on the performance of Kingdoms? I managed to score a decent amount of the last wave at discount, but at that time, just about everything was discounted, regardless of theme, or so it seemed at the time.

It would be interesting to know if TLG considered that one a flop as well. I love it very much, and feel that its only shortcoming was that it was killed off before we could get more than the usual castle-small fort-blacksmith-carriage assortment. (Mill Village Raid notwithstanding, which was great)

[Itaria No Shintaku]

53 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

I know you have your sources, so I'm certainly not going to doubt your assertions. With that said, do you have any insight on the performance of Kingdoms? I managed to score a decent amount of the last wave at discount, but at that time, just about everything was discounted, regardless of theme, or so it seemed at the time.

It would be interesting to know if TLG considered that one a flop as well. I love it very much, and feel that its only shortcoming was that it was killed off before we could get more than the usual castle-small fort-blacksmith-carriage assortment. (Mill Village Raid notwithstanding, which was great)

I haven't informations on Kingdoms but this I can say: while TLG was literally THROWIN' away some sets (Galaxy Squad, Ultra Agents' last wave, Chima's speedorz, Simpsons CMF2, Lone Ranger, PoTC, Prince of Persia, Scooby Doo) nothing related to kingdoms was in this list.

So that's all I can say.

[x105Black]

20 hours ago, Artanis I said:

They are all in crAzy colours, makes them a lot less useful. Better off just getting normal ones from BL from previous Castle.

This Castle hiatus combined with the Space theme hiatus (yes, there are parts and models in the action themes that fit the Space thing, but no sets for a coherent 'theme' that you could build a diorama with, like that monorail shared yesterday), along with the abrupt unfinished end of the Tolkien theme has me hardly touching Lego over the last year or two, despite being on websites every day. If not for SW I'd possibly give it up.

Yes.  While there are parts in more subtle and subdued colors for traditional Castle fans, there are a lot of very bright, bold colors that don't work as well.  I think that LEGO made a bold attempt to create something that appeals to both Castle and Space fans, but got a little caught up and made something in between that didn't really work for either.  This is especially true if you aren't interested in selling off all the parts you wont use for one reason or another.

19 hours ago, Aanchir said:

I don't quite agree that "nowadays kids aren't interested in these" (well, maybe for Western, but that was never really a core product category for them, just a brief two-year theme). The number of castles and Castle-ish subject matter we've been getting in non-Castle themes seems to indicate to me that things like kings, castles, knights, dragons, fantasy creatures, etc. still resonate very strongly with kids.  Really, Nexo Knights seems more to me like LEGO taking a few years off from traditional Castle to see if they can leverage its timeless appeal in a radical new way, than giving up on the traditional stuff entirely. It's not as though other "weirder" Castle themes of the past like Fright Knights or Knights' Kingdom II represented a permanent departure from what LEGO Castle had once meant. They were just LEGO taking a little detour off the path, so to speak. And just because Nexo Knights is a little further off the beaten trail than usual doesn't mean LEGO has no plans to return.

A person in 2004 might've said that kids had no interest in Space sets anymore and only cared about Star Wars. Yet in the past decade there have been four different non-licensed Space themes and various stand-alone Space sets. Our hypothetical 2004 spokesperson might've also imagined that buildable figure themes like Bionicle would be the new normal for kids' play preferences, whereas they've actually become more niche over time as other, more brick-based themes have made a huge comeback. Kids' interests do change with time, but those changes aren't necessarily as permanent and straightforward as we sometimes imagine them to be. They tend to ebb and flow, retracing their movements in ways that can be hard to see coming ahead of time.

I commend LEGO for trying something new.  I'm happy to see that they wanted to do something different from their stale, formulaic roll-out of Castle sets.  I'm just disappointed with how different they went, in a personal capacity.  And you're right, they've done weird themes in the Castle genre before and come back to normalcy.  But we should acknowledge that those deviations are among the least popular sub-themes of Castle.

18 hours ago, RetroInferno said:

Castle theme was the most popular theme in Germany ( Lego's largest milk cow ) if I remember correctly. If there's anything we should be mad about is the 2013 theme which was extremly poor in my opinion, this must have tank horribly for them to produce only 5 sets.

If they wanted to please both space and castle fans by merging them trying to please everyone they sure did missed the mark.

I agree.  As I said, I believe that this was what they were doing.  Rather than release a Space wave and a Castle wave, they tried to kill 2 birds with one stone.  And they did miss the mark.  Furthermore, I think the 2013 theme's size might go further back than itself.  Because we know that sets are usually in production quite far before release, I think there must have been another factor.

3 hours ago, SirBlake said:

I know you have your sources, so I'm certainly not going to doubt your assertions. With that said, do you have any insight on the performance of Kingdoms? I managed to score a decent amount of the last wave at discount, but at that time, just about everything was discounted, regardless of theme, or so it seemed at the time.

It would be interesting to know if TLG considered that one a flop as well. I love it very much, and feel that its only shortcoming was that it was killed off before we could get more than the usual castle-small fort-blacksmith-carriage assortment. (Mill Village Raid notwithstanding, which was great)

The last year of Kingdoms saw the release of Tolkien themes, which may have dulled its performance.  And while the Tolkien themes were popular, they weren't as popular as LEGO had hoped or expected (resulting in truncated releases).  I believe that this could be why Castle 2013 was as short a theme as it was.  They didn't want to risk it.  But after these medieval fantasy themes, they saw fit to try something bold and new based off of both the success of Ninjago and the enduring popularity and history of Castle and Space themes.  Again, I applaud them for their outside the box thinking.  LEGO is always innovative, if nothing else.  But as Itara indicated, Kingdoms was not a poor performer.  There were other much worse performers during the last several years.  And considering the cycle of Castle themes over the years, I'd expect something like Fantasy or Kingdoms to be in the pipeline for release.

I am admittedly very critical of Nexo Knights.  There have been aspects of the theme that I have softened on over time.  It's not a complete waste.  I hope that other Castle fans can point out what LEGO did well with Nexo Knights, and that LEGO will listen and try to incorporate some of those elements into a new Castle theme.  For example, the new shield shaped tile, the pyramid tile, the visors, the lava-based fantasy monsters, the gargoyle themed monsters, the idea of knights representing different factions with different colored gear...

So while there is a lot to complain about, now would be a good time to start appreciating what was actually good.  If the next Castle theme is expected in 2019, they are likely in a design phase already.

[Legoman123]

Quite honestly I loved the Alien Conquest theme.  I can't say how well it sold because I don't know, but I thought they were great sets.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

9 hours ago, Legoman123 said:

Quite honestly I loved the Alien Conquest theme.  I can't say how well it sold because I don't know, but I thought they were great sets.

Of course here nobody is judging wheter one was or not entitled to love a theme.
I just said that such themes didn't sell well.Galaxy Squad and Simpsons on top.

These two, alongside with others, sold very less than the expectations.
Furthermore I can add that in my selling experience if a kid wanted a space stuff, he woiuld always end up asking a Star Wars, even if it costed more than an Alien Conquest or a Galaxy Squad.

[Legoman123]

6 hours ago, Itaria No Shintaku said:

Of course here nobody is judging wheter one was or not entitled to love a theme.
I just said that such themes didn't sell well.Galaxy Squad and Simpsons on top.

These two, alongside with others, sold very less than the expectations.
Furthermore I can add that in my selling experience if a kid wanted a space stuff, he woiuld always end up asking a Star Wars, even if it costed more than an Alien Conquest or a Galaxy Squad.

I don't know how well these themes sell to be honest, but I was under the impression that the Simpsons sold well?

[AmperZand]

It's not a bad thing that LEGO explores new themes, but they need to go about it in a smarter way.

The ranges that do best tend to be the ones that kids, not AFOLs, can identify with culturally or that have cultural capital for kids. So popular licences for kids such as SW and DC/Marvel superheroes, girl-focused ranges such as Friends and Elves, and perennial themes such as ninjas, knights and spaceships have done well historically.

The themes that don't do well tend to be ones where either the cultural identifiers are confusing for kids e.g mash-ups of space + insects or space + police, or where they have low cultural capital such as focusing on the baddies e.g. Alien Conquest, and not-so-popular licences, e.g. Scooby-Doo and Lone Ranger.

There will, of course, be exceptions. But as a generality, it seems to be true.

If I worked for LEGO - I don't - I would suggest a Greek mythology theme. LEGO has many of the necessary moulds already thanks to CMFs so can avoid expensive tooling and it's a theme that most kids in the west cover at school so would resonate with them. I wouldn't bother with a space theme: that's already covered by SW.

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by AmperZand

[tafkatb]

1 hour ago, AmperZand said:

it's a theme that most kids in the west cover at school so would resonate with them.

That right there's your problem. TLG is a global company and has been pursuing Asian markets more aggressively recently. Western bias does not make for a good strategy in that kind of business environment.

[Legoman123]

1 hour ago, AmperZand said:

If I worked for LEGO - I don't - I would suggest a Greek mythology theme. LEGO has many of the necessary moulds already thanks to CMFs so can avoid expensive tooling and it's a theme that most kids in the west cover at school so would resonate with them. I wouldn't bother with a space theme: that's already covered by SW.

 

That's actually a really good idea to be honest.  Personally I would love WW1/WW2 Lego sets, I know this will never happen though as it is still very much a prominent subject not only in schools but in life.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Legoman123

[Lyichir]

2 hours ago, AmperZand said:

It's not a bad thing that LEGO explores new themes, but they need to go about it in a smarter way.

The ranges that do best tend to be the ones that kids, not AFOLs, can identify with culturally or that have cultural capital for kids. So popular licences for kids such as SW and DC/Marvel superheroes, girl-focused ranges such as Friends and Elves, and perennial themes such as ninjas, knights and spaceships have done well historically.

The themes that don't do well tend to be ones where either the cultural identifiers are confusing for kids e.g mash-ups of space + insects or space + police, or where they have low cultural capital such as focusing on the baddies e.g. Alien Conquest, and not-so-popular licences, e.g. Scooby-Doo and Lone Ranger.

There will, of course, be exceptions. But as a generality, it seems to be true.

If I worked for LEGO - I don't - I would suggest a Greek mythology theme. LEGO has many of the necessary moulds already thanks to CMFs so can avoid expensive tooling and it's a theme that most kids in the west cover at school so would resonate with them. I wouldn't bother with a space theme: that's already covered by SW.

 

Your theory seems to overlook the fact that up until Ninjago launched in 2011 ninja was not really a "perennial theme that had done well historically" but rather a two-year theme from the '90s that had not been revisited in over a decade. And in fact, Ninjago found its success largely through "mash-ups", with the ninja (who were themselves far from traditional ninja, utilizing high-tech vehicles) fighting skeletons, snakes, cyborgs, ghosts, and pirates, among several others. Considering Ninjago is one of the most successful new themes of the modern era the fact that its success seems to run totally counter to your theory seems to be a significant sticking point.

There's also the matter of other historically successful themes that have been far less successful in the modern era—just look at the 2013 Castle theme or the 2015 Pirates theme, both of which represented those successful classic themes at their most pure and traditional, yet still failed to enjoy great success themselves.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Lyichir

[SirBlake]

2 hours ago, Lyichir said:

There's also the matter of other historically successful themes that have been far less successful in the modern era—just look at the 2013 Castle theme or the 2015 Pirates theme, both of which represented those successful classic themes at their most pure and traditional, yet still failed to enjoy great success themselves.

Your point is well taken, especially on Ninjago, but 2013 Castle and 2015 pirates are in their own way an extreme example of templatized theme making that are considered to be uninspired and a whole new level of derivative. Most feel that is what limited their chances at great success more than their subject matter. 

Even so, by comparison, boring is better than completely absent. This years-long drought of castle has tought me that. 

[MAB]

Do most kids in the West do Greek history? My kids have done Romans, Vikings, Tudors, 1066, and 100 years ago (so WW1 but based on children's lives, not the war itself). This is UK based.

[SirBlake]

38 minutes ago, MAB said:

Do most kids in the West do Greek history? My kids have done Romans, Vikings, Tudors, 1066, and 100 years ago (so WW1 but based on children's lives, not the war itself). This is UK based.

Yes. Two words: Trojan Horse 

i cant speak for the U.K., but it seems a great percentage of school mascots are Trojans as well, so there's plenty of that in the zeitgeist. 

[Aanchir]

4 hours ago, SirBlake said:

Your point is well taken, especially on Ninjago, but 2013 Castle and 2015 pirates are in their own way an extreme example of templatized theme making that are considered to be uninspired and a whole new level of derivative. Most feel that is what limited their chances at great success more than their subject matter.

While they were definitely heavily criticized for this by AFOLs, I have to wonder whether the target audience for these sets really cares about this kind of repetition, particularly in the case of Pirates. After all, before 2015, the last full wave of Pirates sets was in 2009. Any kid younger than 10 when the 2015 stuff came out would not have been within the target age range for the 2009 stuff when it came out. Since the general recommended age range for Pirates sets is 5–12, that's a pretty sizable chunk of their intended audience. If LEGO could successfully sell a new version of the Destiny's Bounty just three years after the original, shouldn't six years be enough time between new versions of a more "normal" pirate ship?

[Legoman123]

I live in the UK and I can tell you that Greek Mythology was covered when I was at school, so was WW2.  Unfortunately they didn't cover much on WW, everything I know on that is though my own findings.  

[Artanis I]

Only ancient culture we looked at back in school was an overview of Egyptian & Roman. All I know about Greek stuff I've looked up for myself.

Is it still being taught today? The languages taught in our schools today are different from what was taught decades ago, what about ancient history/culture?

[Lyichir]

1 hour ago, Artanis I said:

Only ancient culture we looked at back in school was an overview of Egyptian & Roman. All I know about Greek stuff I've looked up for myself.

Is it still being taught today? The languages taught in our schools today are different from what was taught decades ago, what about ancient history/culture?

In my own personal experience in America (and these are hazy memories of over a decade ago, so may not be the most accurate or relevant), we certainly didn't get a very in-depth education about ancient cultures until high school (~14–18 years old). We'd gotten some chance to learn about those cultures (especially in discussion of literature in English class, or in gifted/talented programs) earlier on, but it was mostly surface-level stuff—I feel like the bulk of the time was spent on American history, ranging from early native cultures and the age of exploration up to the modern day, or on modern cultures around the globe.

I mean, I certainly wasn't totally unaware of that history, but I was a voracious reader with a love of learning. Unless a lot has changed since I was in elementary and middle school I doubt many kids would relate to that sort of theme as easily as they might for more "traditional" historical themes like Castle and Pirates, or even more niche themes like Ninja and Western.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Lyichir

[zoth33]

Legoman123 Lego will never do ww1 and ww2.  They have already stated that several times but there are customs lego shops like brick warriors and others that sell ww1 and ww2 style figs and accessories.  Lego also does study groups with kids to find out what they like so its not like they just wing it with themes and guess what people want.  Don't worry castle will be back soon.  Nexoknights is only set to run three years so after next year we will see some new castle sets or maybe even sooner.  Lego ran a regular castle theme while the hobbit sets were out.  Just have faith. 

[SirBlake]

4 hours ago, Aanchir said:

While they were definitely heavily criticized for this by AFOLs, I have to wonder whether the target audience for these sets really cares about this kind of repetition, particularly in the case of Pirates. After all, before 2015, the last full wave of Pirates sets was in 2009. Any kid younger than 10 when the 2015 stuff came out would not have been within the target age range for the 2009 stuff when it came out. Since the general recommended age range for Pirates sets is 5–12, that's a pretty sizable chunk of their intended audience. If LEGO could successfully sell a new version of the Destiny's Bounty just three years after the original, shouldn't six years be enough time between new versions of a more "normal" pirate ship?

I see your point on this, but the rehash of set types is really only one factor. Simply put, there just wasn't anything special about these sets, including but not limited to rehashed selection. 

Specific to the 2015 pirate ship, I bought it and like it a lot. Anecdotally, I didn't see it sitting on shelves forever either, nor did I ever see it on sale. The rest of the sets for that theme were meh though. 

[MAB]

7 hours ago, zoth33 said:

Legoman123 Lego will never do ww1 and ww2.  They have already stated that several times but there are customs lego shops like brick warriors and others that sell ww1 and ww2 style figs and accessories.

 

They currently don't do WW1 or WW2. Have they ever stated that they will never do these? Their boundaries change with time. When the younger generations own the company they may well decide in 50 years time that WW1 and WW2 is long ago enough to be history, when no-one that was alive at the time is currently living.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

4 minutes ago, MAB said:

They currently don't do WW1 or WW2. Have they ever stated that they will never do these? Their boundaries change with time. When the younger generations own the company they may well decide in 50 years time that WW1 and WW2 is long ago enough to be history, when no-one that was alive at the time is currently living.

TLG has been recently awarded #2 in most considered company in the world.
They won't do any WW2, and that's good, or they would drop down in this standings.

 

[MAB]

4 hours ago, Itaria No Shintaku said:

TLG has been recently awarded #2 in most considered company in the world.
They won't do any WW2, and that's good, or they would drop down in this standings.

 

 

I know they currently don't. But when have they said they will NEVER do it? I don't believe they have ever made such a statement. If / when lego takes another downturn like around the turn of the century, and if WW2 history is popular (say in about 2039-45) then they may well decide the time is right to do militaria.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

1 hour ago, MAB said:

I know they currently don't. But when have they said they will NEVER do it? I don't believe they have ever made such a statement. If / when lego takes another downturn like around the turn of the century, and if WW2 history is popular (say in about 2039-45) then they may well decide the time is right to do militaria.

I don't think so. I think people in US wouldn't love to buy Nazi stuff. Nor people in Germany.
This means that TLG would upset two of their major markets, for what?

[RetroInferno]

Has ayone seen this? http://www.hothbricks.com/lego-nexo-knights-concept-inedit-original-quil-a-lair/

Who knew Lego would rip off a 1988 Hasbro license 

A bunch of knights with powers coming out of their shield and chest, medieval and space, a virtual wizard mentor.

I don't blame Lego but I had a good laugh reading through it.