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Custom 9V tracks

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Hello everyone!

Like I'm sure many of you, I've been in the Lego train game for a while now (20+ years) and am pretty well entrenched in 9V. I'd always hoped that Lego would put out wider radius curves, but needless to say, those hopes were dashed when they discontinued the 9V line altogether. Those hopes were built up again each time we had someone promise to pick up where Lego left off, only to have that also fall by the side of the road for some reason or another.

With the advent of the ME rails, I had hopes once again. While the multi-piece design may work for some, it just doesn't suit me for a couple of reasons. 1) the solid metal rails may look more realistic, but don't match the existing track (which I'd rather not have to completely replace), and 2) most of our setups are on the floor running around the house, where they frequently get kicked or shuffled around. Assembled track is going to constantly need repairs. I asked if one-piece metal rails were in the works, but it appears that's not in the stars. So once again, it looks like I'm out of luck.

As it stands, I'm working on a layout that needs 2x half length straights. And I started thinking to myself: why am I waiting for someone to do what I can do? I suppose I should introduce myself a little further than I have. My name is Scott, and I'm an engineer. My job is to design and make all sorts of things. Specifically, plastic and metal things. So as a design exercise, I modeled up an existing straight and curve:

2-1-2015%2010-43-24%20PM_zpspszofixs.jpg

Alright, that seems to work. How about the half length I need:

2-17-2015%2011-59-11%20PM_zps6thclywa.jpg

Looks good, but let's print one and check dimensions:

IMAG1010_zpsa6692a83.jpg

Perfect! Studs and plate bottoms all checked out too. All I need now is to have the stamping guys punch out some rails, get them plated, and I should be good to roll.

Here's my question though: Is this worth pursuing beyond my own needs? Curves, straights, switches, & crosses could all be made, just tooling would run in the several thousand dollars, and I'm not going to spend that just for a handful of pieces for myself. I'm not going to promise anything, we've all heard it too many times, but if there's community support I'll look into this further. And I'm certainly not trying to slight the ME guys; I applaud them for the effort they're giving the community. It just doesn't fit my needs. But I also know I can't be alone in this struggle, so I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts.

For the fun of it, here's roughly what an R120 switch would look like:

2-1-2015%2010-52-37%20PM_zpsqrn5atuf.jpg

-Scott

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If you don't like the multi-piece design, why not glue the rails and ties together permanently? Then you will have your single-piece tracks.

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I will be buidling mine with code 250 rail and old 12v track plates, to make it lego like.

This will be cheap to make but harder to make as hand making turnouts is not that easy but once you have a jig made up its not that hard.

But nice image of the turn out give me something to work off :-)

Edited by Lazarus

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Hi Scott,

as far as I heart, ME will also make track which comes in "ready to play" units like we know it from LEGO. And I am with you, the perfect world would offer 9V like track in various radii, length and switches as addition to the existing LEGO track system. Unfortunatelly this is part of the dream world.

Dreams

  • Custom tracks with the look and feel of 9V tracks, suitable for PF and 9V trains
  • Various radii
  • Various length
  • Switches (should fit in the R56, R72, R88 and R104 pattern) ... Michael Gale has some really cool ideas on his flicker album:

Facts

  • Making custom track and rails is very expensive.
  • Producing mixed plastic and metal custom track is even more expensive (I assume).
  • The target group of LEGO train hobbyists is not soo big which makes it a safe deal to invest tons of money in the manufacturing of various custom tracks.
  • ME acually is offering additions to the train system, ok, it does look more like old 4,5/12 V track and it does not support 9V trains (because of no metal).
  • ME set the standards for larger radii to R56, R72, R88 and R104. Any other custom track/switch should go along with this standard or add even larger radii ini steps of 16 studs (R120, R136, ...)
  • If some other custom manufacturer wants to become successful, he should offer something which ME does not offer.

Holger

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If you can make it look like real LEGO track, then I'm sure you will be able to sell quite a few track pieces. I for one am interested in maybe 2 or 3 loops and a couple of switches.

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I'd be interested in r104+ switches even though they wouldn't match my ME Models track.

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These are very cool tracks.

While I think there is enough of a market for one custom track manufacturer, I doubt that there is sufficient demand for two competing for the exact same market if both face large, up front tooling costs. That is not to say that there is not a market. There are a lot of unique track geometries that would be fantastic for 9v, e.g., wider radius curves (beyond the R56 that ME is working on), wider radii switches, single crossovers, etc.. From looking at the normal 9v lego switches, there is some clever engineering in those. To make all of the electrical connections without shorting things out would likely be non-trivial and might push the costs too high.

One question might be, is it possible to metalize ME plastic track (and PF track for that matter) using something more durable than the conducting tape?

Even if you never go commercial, definitely keep posting your work

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One question might be, is it possible to metalize ME plastic track (and PF track for that matter) using something more durable than the conducting tape?

I can't speak for the ME track, but the height of the plastic rail on the PF track is the same as the combined plastic+metal height on old 9V track. This means that if you add anything more substantial than tape to PF track, you get a noticeable knock as a train transitions from 9V to PF track.

I tried adding a 9V metal rail to a PF curve, and it resulted in regular derailings as trains encountered it.

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Thanks for the responses everyone.

Tooling isn't nearly as bad as it was 10 years ago. With so much stuff going to China, it's forced tool and die makers in the States to rethink their processes, and as a result, a lot of them have gotten much more nimble and cost effective. It may still prove out to be too expensive to make this a reality, but I can investigate.

as far as I hear, ME will also make track which comes in "ready to play" units like we know it from LEGO. And I am with you, the perfect world would offer 9V like track in various radii, length and switches as addition to the existing LEGO track system. Unfortunatelly this is part of the dream world.

Dreams

  • Custom tracks with the look and feel of 9V tracks, suitable for PF and 9V trains
  • Various radii
  • Various length
  • Switches (should fit in the R56, R72, R88 and R104 pattern) ... Michael Gale has some really cool ideas on his flicker album: https://www.flickr.c...57649851180208/

Facts

  • Making custom track and rails is very expensive.
  • Producing mixed plastic and metal custom track is even more expensive (I assume).
  • The target group of LEGO train hobbyists is not soo big which makes it a safe deal to invest tons of money in the manufacturing of various custom tracks.
  • ME acually is offering additions to the train system, ok, it does look more like old 4,5/12 V track and it does not support 9V trains (because of no metal).
  • ME set the standards for larger radii to R56, R72, R88 and R104. Any other custom track/switch should go along with this standard or add even larger radii ini steps of 16 studs (R120, R136, ...)
  • If some other custom manufacturer wants to become successful, he should offer something which ME does not offer.

Holger

I've actually got a sketch showing very similar things to Michael Gale. In addition to the wider radius switch idea, I think it would be good to have the standard R40 one diverge at 37° (36.89° to be exact, but we'll call it 37°). This does a couple really nice things for us. First, if you have 2 of the same opposing each other, you get a nice crossover at the usual 16 stud spacing with the ends at exactly 1 straight length off. Second, if we have a a corresponding 8° curve, we can build an interlaced turnout with the square crossover or at 45° with a diamond crossover. There are certainly a lot of neat layouts we could build with more track options.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. The R120 switches right now only exist as a concept, where I've overlayed an R120 curve with some straights. It's not a functional model yet, but I can work on that. Don't forget also that we need a spring for the point, but I should be able to source that. However, switches are big and complicated molds, and we're dealing with significantly smaller demand, so they may not be as practical as the small straight and curve pieces. And zephyr is absolutely right, the 9V switches have some serious design work to them. Have you guys noticed the long rails on those aren't a single piece, but rather several overlapping segments with a ball indent on the side to ensure conductivity? Or the jumper wires buried in the rails? It's all doable, but there's a lot of work to be done before we get there.

What I'll do is get some quotes on tooling for the half length 9V straights and a wide radius curve, say R120? I like that one because its' exactly 3x the normal R40 but still falls within the 16 stud spacing ME has designated (the next step would be R200, in my mind). This will get us a starting point, and be pretty telling if switches could ever be in the stars.

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Thought I'd update everyone since it's been a while. I've focused my attention on just the R120 curves for now, as it seems like a pretty safe place to start. The size of the R120 curve would be comparable to standard R40s and straights, and the angle works out such that a full 360° loop will require 48 pieces. Figure I'd sell them in boxes of 12 (1/4 turn).

The plastic base was no problem to get quoted, got a great price on tooling and piece-parts. The rails though, have been a bit of a headache. Stamping houses are a dime-a-dozen, but most of them can't handle material this thin, so I've had to find thin-guage stampers that also don't mind smaller quantities, and that's been a bit of a challenge. As such, the price on the metal rails is high. I'm seeing if I can get additional quotes from other suppliers as well as seeing how greater quantities will reduce the cost of the rails. Right now, I'd have to sell a single piece for $15, or $180/box. This is almost 3x what my target was, but it may simply be the reality of things.

One option I do still have is to modify the track design. If I thicken the material, it will open me up to more vendors that may be better suited to small runs like this. It uses more metal obviously, but it may still be advantageous price-wise. It shouldn't negatively affect the tracks at all, so I'll explore this option before committing to anything.

That all said, if I just did the curves in all plastic, they'd be about $3 each. Too bad I'm married to 9V. I get why Lego switched...

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Hey Scott..........I'm married there too :blush: Please by all means keep us 9V :wub: lovers informed.

I for one would welcome any larger radius and apposing switches that would match-up to the regular rails, count me in to buy some. :thumbup: :thumbup:

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Great job your doing Scott. I'm no longer married to 9v, but I love the ideas of track geometry you're going for. If you ever make them in plastic I'd be in. Especially for the exotic points.

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This is exciting progress, I look forward to seeing the results, have you thought about starting a kick starter for this project?

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What would the Width of a full circle of R120 be? I'm guessing quit large. This project interests me (ME seem to be taking a very long time to get around to releasing anything to people who didn't catch the Kickstarter) but I suspect my needs don't fit yours and it'd be another project that passed me by. Still, I'll watch this with interest.

Edit: That said, I'd be very interested in the half length straits.

Edited by Redimus

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Thanks for the support, guys! I'll be sure to update a little more frequently. Life just has an annoying habit of getting in the way of the important things. :wink:

Longterm, I very much intend to do the other track geometries, especially the corresponding R120 switches. However, this is a good example of walking before running, so R120 curves first, then if that's successful, I'll do a half length straight (that should go quick), then the switches. Switches will certainly take some time to develop, but it'll be worth it.

This is exciting progress, I look forward to seeing the results, have you thought about starting a kick starter for this project?

I will most likely get a kickstarter going, but I'm going to make sure all my ducks are in a row first. I don't want to suddenly find myself $20k+ short on funds and not able to deliver as promised. When I hit kickstarter, it'll be go-time.

What would the Width of a full circle of R120 be? I'm guessing quit large. This project interests me (ME seem to be taking a very long time to get around to releasing anything to people who didn't catch the Kickstarter) but I suspect my needs don't fit yours and it'd be another project that passed me by. Still, I'll watch this with interest.

Edit: That said, I'd be very interested in the half length straits.

Edge-to-edge, it's 78"/1984mm wide. Diameter of the centerline is 1920mm.

You're right about ME; it seems they're learning about product development the hard way. It also sounds like they have terrible vendors and/or the engineer they contracted with is just phoning it in.

What are your needs? If they're not super specific to you, I can certainly add them to the project list.

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I'd be down for 1 or 2 full circles of the R120 with metal. Would love to run it at home. My lug might be in for a circle or two as well.

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Thanks for the support, guys! I'll be sure to update a little more frequently. Life just has an annoying habit of getting in the way of the important things. :wink:

Longterm, I very much intend to do the other track geometries, especially the corresponding R120 switches. However, this is a good example of walking before running, so R120 curves first, then if that's successful, I'll do a half length straight (that should go quick), then the switches. Switches will certainly take some time to develop, but it'll be worth it.

I will most likely get a kickstarter going, but I'm going to make sure all my ducks are in a row first. I don't want to suddenly find myself $20k+ short on funds and not able to deliver as promised. When I hit kickstarter, it'll be go-time.

Edge-to-edge, it's 78"/1984mm wide. Diameter of the centerline is 1920mm.

You're right about ME; it seems they're learning about product development the hard way. It also sounds like they have terrible vendors and/or the engineer they contracted with is just phoning it in.

What are your needs? If they're not super specific to you, I can certainly add them to the project list.

Wider than standard curves but not too sweeping because of space considerations.It's hard to say for certain because I don't have the exact measurements and the layout's current set up won't be it's final one. Like everyone else I would also be interested in the more sensible points (hell, a version of the current ones with the cut off point earlier like normal model railway points would do!).

In all honesty though, while I would certainly consider any and all alternatives to plain lego track, I'm not the kind of person you can bank on for a sale because I don't know (yet) exactly what it is I want to achieve.

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The large radius 9v curves would be fantastic if they work. I see two very tricky spots though, the first is coming up with a means to provide reliable electrical connections between track junctions. The second is coming up with a cost effective means of securing the rails to the ties. BBB tried something similar a few years ago and ultimately had problems reliably securing the rails to the ties. You are not facing an easy challenge. So don't invest more than you are prepared to loose in case something goes wrong. That said, these would be a valuable asset to those still using 9v trains and I would love to have a wide radius 9v curve. You might want to start a kickstarter just for development money without promising success on the first round.

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Agree with zephyr1934 - if you do a kickstarter, come back here and advertise it. I supported ME for metal rails and have been waiting for a long time; I fully believe they will fulfill their orders and hopefully be very successful selling LEGO compatible track - I fully intend to buy a lot more of it. But I would also commit to a kickstarter campaign for these, too. The way I look at it, I buy from a lot of third parties (brickforge, brickarms, brickwarriors, altbricks, big ben, the list goes on), I would definitely be buying from both ME and another business putting out decent tracks.

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What are the chances that you'd eventually make track with a radius of around 312 studs? Plastic works.

Edited by Aaron

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